Vehicle battery Question

[Bill Grumbine]

Good afternoon all

With the advent of warmer weather we are outside here trying to get some things done. One job requires the use of my diesel tractor, which has not run since last October. I was not surprised when it cranked, but failed to start, giving all indications of a very low battery. No problem says I. SWMBO brought our Suburban and a set of jumper cables over to the barn and I connected everything up, positive to positive, and negative on the Suburban to ground on the tractor. The cables immediately started heating up to the point where the insulation started to melt and smoke! I got the cables pulled off as quickly as I could, and there does not seem to be any damage to either vehicle.

My question is this. What happened? It seems like something shorted out. I have been hooking up batteries to jump vehicles for years and never had anything like this happen. It looks like I will be buying a new battery for the tractor, but I would really like to know what is going on in case there is a deeper problem to address.

Thanks.

Bill

[Ken Garlock]

HI Bill. While I can't say about your tractor, it is quite common for diesel pickups to use a 24V starter system. If you have two batteries for a 24V system, you can see that they are daisy chained in series. That Might be the reason your cables got hot; you were trying to push 24V into a 12V Chevy.

If you are sure you have a 12V tractor system, your battery(s) might be beyond saving. I guess I would take them to a local auto parts house and have them check. It only takes about 2 minutes per battery to run the check, but they will need to be charged first. The parts houses will charge it in hopes of selling you a new battery.

An easier thing to try is slapping a battery charger on the/each battery for an hour and see if that fixes it.

Not a definitive solution, but something to consider....

[Steve Clardy]

Bill. Sounds like the water was frozen in the battery and it shorted internally when you hooked up the cables. You probably should replace it. When they short out, it could blow up on you and send acid all over you, the tractor, and your vehicle. Acid removes paint, and is not nice in the eyes. Steve

[David Perkins]

Bill did the connections emitted a lot of sparks? Did the tractor start to crank when the cables were connected?
If it started to crank when the cables were connected the solenoid did not release in the starter which may need replacing. If there were large arcing when the ground cable was connected the positive cable may be grounded, or the battery shorted. Or you could be using to small size of jumper cables. On diesels I normally use double aught wire so that over heating of the cables won't be a concern and having larger cables don't hurt anything except the pocket book.
David

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Bill,

Here is another thought. Given the vintage of your tractor it may have a positive ground. Do you have a manual for the tractor that covers the eletrical system?

Do you have another battery you can put in it to test. Maybe pull one from the car.

[David Perkins]

Hi Bill,

Here is another thought. Given the vintage of your tractor it may have a positive ground. Do you have a manual for the tractor that covers the eletrical system?

Do you have another battery you can put in it to test. Maybe pull one from the car.

It should be easy to check for a positve ground by just following the positve cable. If it is a positve ground it is grounded to the block, but the hook ups would still be the same (+Pos to Pos)( - Neg to Neg)
Could it be 6Volt system? Are there 3 cells or 6 cells in the battery??
David

[Bill Grumbine]

Thanks guys, for the quick answers! The tractor is a 12 volt system, and it was cranking for me when I pressed the start lever. It did not crank when I hooked up the Suburban - I did not get the chance before I had to remove the cables. I have had it for three years now, and who knows how old the battery is? The tractor itself is 41 this year.

I did not get any sparks or arcing, so that is good news. Finding parts for this thing is not easy. It might just be a too small cable too. It is one of those wimpy ones that come in a car emergency kit that was given to us a few years ago. I have a better set somewhere. The battery did have a good charge on it when it was put away for winter, but we did not run it at all this winter - too cold to start and no electric in the barn yet for a block heater.

I guess I'll just use the little garden tractor today and talk to my neighbor, who works at the local battery factory. He works at their retail sales counter, and has offered in the past to get me a battery if I need it. From some other advice on another forum the battery might just be worn out, and it is not worth blowing up to save a few bucks.

Thanks again!

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

Good evening all

After a few responses here I gave my neighbor a call - the one who works at the battery factory. He came over with his super heavy duty jumper cables and a battery tester. The battery tested out fine. The water levels were good, the voltage was right on, and even under cranking load it tested just fine. It just wouldn't crank enough to start.

We retried the cable hookup. HIS cables started to smoke! These things were seriously big, somewhere around 8 ga or so (guess on my part). Just for laughs, instead of hooking up the negative to the frame on the tractor, we put it on the negative terminal. No sparks, no smoking, no nothing. SWMBO fired up the Suburban, and after a few minutes, I cranked the tractor and it started right up! I ran it for an hour or so, shut it down, and then tried to start it under its own power. It fired right up again!

I'm mystified, but it is running just fine now.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Bill

[Ken Garlock]

Well Bill, the answer is obvious. I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier today

The first thing you have to understand is that all electrical items really run on smoke. Normally, if you let the smoke of an electrical or electronic device, it quites working. However, there is a phenomenon that occurs when there is an excess of smoke in a system. The excess smoke causes the entire system to bog down and sometimes not even work. What happened today as you were testing, the jumper cables allowed just the correct amount of smoke to escape from the electrical system, and then it was able to run. This is a rare happening, so don't try it again with out the help of professionals like your neighbor

Now let me tell you about some choice water front land I have for sale about 120 miles south of New Orleans.

[John Christiansen]

[QUOTE=Bill Grumbine]Good evening all

After a few responses here I gave my neighbor a call - the one who works at the battery factory. He came over with his super heavy duty jumper cables and a battery tester. The battery tested out fine. The water levels were good, the voltage was right on, and even under cranking load it tested just fine. It just wouldn't crank enough to start.

We retried the cable hookup. HIS cables started to smoke! These things were seriously big, somewhere around 8 ga or so (guess on my part). Just for laughs, instead of hooking up the negative to the frame on the tractor, we put it on the negative terminal. No sparks, no smoking, no nothing. SWMBO fired up the Suburban, and after a few minutes, I cranked the tractor and it started right up! I ran it for an hour or so, shut it down, and then tried to start it under its own power. It fired right up again!

I'm mystified, but it is running just fine now.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Still sounds like positive ground on the tractor. Especially since you smoked the cables hooked to the frame, but didn't when hooked directly to the battery.

[Ted Shrader]

Bill -

At this point, I recommend you inspect the cables and attachment points on the tractor. Cables have been known to corrode inside the terminal lugs at the crimp point. Also check the ground cable on the block and the + cable on the starter solenoid. Both should be shiny and clean. If not, a little bit of emery cloth or a wire brush will fix them up.

Good luck,
Ted

[Carl Eyman]

Bill, I don't know why I ask, but both times you put the cable on the frame was it at the same part of the frame? If so, you might attach a light wire to the negative pole of the battery and gingerly touch the other end of that wire to the part of the frame you used and see if there is a voltage difference - by watching for a spark. You could also test for a difference with a voltmeter. I'm thinking that somehow a portion of the frame is isolated from the rest and is positively charged. Unlikely, yes, but so is your whole experience.

[Walt Pater]

[QUOTE=Ken Garlock]Well Bill, the answer is obvious. I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier today

The first thing you have to understand is that all electrical items really run on smoke.

ROTFLMAO!
Humor helps when someone pulls out the jumpers.

[Chuck Wintle]

Bill,
Did you say what model of tractor it is? And the year. I remember going to a car show many years ago and remarking that all the british cars were wired "positive earth" as it was written or positive ground. it would certainly make a short circuit if you used the chassis for ground(-ve) and the (+ve) already at ground of the battery.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

BIll, As stated by others before me.....based on the fact that the jumpers didn't smoke when the negative jumper was hooked to the battery but did when connected to the frame.....your tractor is most likely positive (+) grounded system. Current (arc) will only flow when there is a difference in potential.

At about any hardware store for a couple of bucks you can purchase a 12 volt DC tester that uses a lamp to indicate the presence of voltage. This tester will have two leads. Touch one lead to the frame and one lead to one of the battery terminals. When connected to one battery terminal and frame the lamp will light.......When connected to the other battery terminal and frame the lamp will not light.....NOTE!!_ When the tester is connected to one of the battery terminals and the frame AND THE LAMP IS NOT LIGHTED ......THIS IS THE TERMINAL THATS CONNECTED TO YOUR FRAME. Make sure that both conditions happen....ie. one battery terminal to frame lights the lamp...one battery terminal to frame doesn't light the lamp.....if you don't have a good contact with the tester....you could get a false indication.

If I remember correctly you posted an earlier thread about purchasing this tractor and if my memory serves me correctly it was an British made tractor and was an older model.....IF so, it could well have a positive (+) grounded system.

GOOD LUCK!
Ken