Shop renovation -- What do I do?

[Brian Weick]

i don't mean to step on your toes- not at all but Without even looking at the roof joist deflection rate specification /joist used/wood specification/and span I would not recommend just Purlins , He is going to need a more substantial roof joist framing application than 24"oc considering the weight factor , if he doesn't fill the gap there is bound to be some deflection not only in the roof Field but also between the joists causing a sag with 1/2" CDX - If it were me - I would not gamble - your only talking 12 joists at the high end price $130.00 - well worth going the extra mile with a project that you would want to last as long as possible.
Brian

[Matt Meiser]

I agree with the others--replace the roof. Then properly insulate, then do any necessary interior repair. If you have mold, rip out whatever is moldy and any wet insulation.

Our previous house had an addition built on the back of the garage for storage. Its metal roof sweated any time it was humid and the roof was cooler than the interior air, which meant virutally any time it rained since the rainwater cooled the roof. I installed foil-faced insulation board over the entire ceiling which helped quite a bit but didn't solve the problem. When we were looking for our new house, I looked at one that had a really nice pole barn with a metal roof and it had evidence of dripping as well.

For interior finish on the ceiling of my shop I used non-warrantied steel. It is supposedly the same as the exterior stuff, just sold without a warranty. the insulation is between the steel and the roof deck. Mine has an attic because it has prefab trusses, but I don't see why you couldn't put up steel on the sloped ceiling. I was a little worried about noise, but I don't think it is a significant problem since i have 12' ceilings. The main reason I chose it is that it goes up easy, and in one step. No taping and painting like drywall. I highly recommend renting scaffolding for your ceilings. It cost me about $75/week and saved me a ton of ladder climbing.

As to the doors, I'd leave one big door if one or the other is in good shape and insulated. The nice things about them are that they really open up the shop in nice weather and they make deliveries of large items easy. The bad thing is that they let in cold air in the winter and let out the cool air if you install A/C. I have a 12x12 insulated door in my shop (existing when when we moved in.) I thought I'd probably replace it with something like an 8x8 eventually, but twice I've had deliveries made right into the shop that wouldn't have been possible with a smaller door. If you think you might eventually sell, having a big door will make it more attractive to someone wanting to get cars/boats/tractors/etc. in there.

For the sides, The metal can look really nice. I really like the two-tone look that Morton uses. You could redo the outside with neatly installed and trimmed steel. Alternately, you could resheet it with OSB and put up vinyl siding. The good thing about vinyl is when you mess up a piece mowing you can easily replace just one piece. The two-tone steel is partly to allow replacing just the bottom too.

When you take out all those skylights and replace the transulcent stuff on the ends, your shop is going to get really dark. I'd add some windows and maybe consider a couple well made skylights. We have a couple in our house and they really brighten things up.
All of this assumes the poles are solid?

[Bill Neely]

Some years ago I had a pole building like yours. What I did was frame up, insulate and drywall a building inside a building.

[Rob Will]

Nathan,
Looks like you have a solid building to start with. I'd rip off the roof steel and put another purlin between the existing ones, apply 1/2" CDX and the shingle roof (with ridge vent) of your choice. I can't see the benefit of adding more rafters...the existing look plenty beefy. Then I'd box in those overhangs at the eaves with some perforated soffit material. Next would be to re do the gable ends with an attractive material. Back at the ceiling, I would install vent chutes from the wall to the ridge on the underside of the roof deck, then 6" of fiberglass insulation covered with more white pole barn steel, my personal ceiling of choice due to its speed of installation and low maintenance.

I agree, a white metal ceiling is the way to go.

As others have said, start with a new roof, roof trim and soffit material. Lose the skylights and install 2" white vinyl faced fiberglass insulation under the new roof to control condensation. As time and money allow, go after the cieling and walls. Unfortunately, by the time you're done, you will spend almost the same money as a new building. I suppose the advantage of a step by step remodel is that you can "pay" in stages rather than all at once.

In your climate, ANY exposed metal roof or siding is going to sweat on the inside without insulation.

Rob

[John Bush]

Hi Nathan,
I live in Seattle and had similar problems with my first shop and the weather here. I converted on old horse barn ~20 X 36 by flooring over the dirt stall floors, insulating and sheeting the interior walls, and I went the opposite way with the roof. I removed the old cedar shakes, kept the skip sheeting, and placed metal roofing and a 4 X 4 skylight. I then insulated the roof and with woodstove heating I had very little moisture/surface rust problems .
Nathan, did the roofers mention the slope of the roof and the limit for using shingles in our climate. I was under the impression that at a certain pitch metal roofs were a better option. IIRC, I choose metal for $$$ reasons.
Another thought is if you do shingles and insulate the roof, snow accum. could be a problem if you don't add more trusses, etc. We don't get that much snow that often, but when we do it tends to be wet and very heavy. Remember the last "Big One" in the mid 90's, The Edmonds marina lost most of their roofs over the docks and close to 100 boats were lost. Of course I don't think a silly old boat is as important as a good TS, BS, etc., but the loss was tough on a lot of folks here. Good luck, John.

[Roger Bell]

I built a pole barn (post and frame) several years ago, in the same climate as you.

I put 1/2" cdx ply sheathing over the purlins, then 30# felt and then the metal roofing. There is no way I would ever have skylights or translucent panels on a roof in this country. The addition of the cdx really muffles the rain sound. There were no leaks with that approach.

A year later, I then packed ordinary fiberglass batt insulation between the purlins, leaving some air space, and then placed white poly faced bubble-reflectix sheeting over the batts as a ceiling. You could substitute sheet or panelling material of any kind for that. The insulation of the ceiling makes the biggest difference in the ability of the building to retain heat in winter and to retard heat in the summer. I notice a 20 degree difference typically in summer. My walls are also insulated and covered with a mix of 1/2 acx ply and sheetrock.

I would also considering replacing both doors with something that is closer to air tight. That would help a lot with temperature and with keeping out the bugs and vermin.

[Nathan Conner]

Well, lots of good advice from everyone - I really appreciate it.

Due to the height/accessibility of the roof and the drive up to the shop, I think what I'll do is try to find some local guys who feel like ripping off, sheeting, and then replacing the roof that's on here, minus the skylights.

It seems, the more I look at it, that the skylights and their plasticity are the major problem, here. Most of the leaks are drips running from those down the rafters, and I can trace each of them back to a line inline with the skylights.

Nothing wrong with the roof as it sits, other than the leaks.

That would get us to the point that we can set up some scaffolding in the shop and either do some insulation up high, or put a ceiling in - work I can easily do by myself or with a little help from a friend to set ledgers.

And I'll look into the best way to remove that door and the gable ends - again, something I can do easily with scaffolding.

Gonna be a project, but also, I think, be enjoyable.

Thanks again!

[Bart Leetch]

Nathen,

insulate the wall cavities- if you can't put craft faced insulation in, you cellulose blown insulation and that can be done from either inside or outside and then plugged where the ports were drilled for the blower nozzle.
and go from there

I used to install insulation professionally. We used to vacuum out cellulose because it loses its fire retardant ability after a few years last I heard was somewhere after 5 years. It used to be saturated with a borax type product which loses its fire retardant ability after a few years. It literally lights off like a torch. Several times we had cellulose vender's come to try & sell us on cellulose insulation & we always showed them our test of aged cellulose insulation by taking some out of the vacuum truck hopper & dropping a match on it whoosh it was gone their embarrassed look & answer I guess I don't have much to sell do I was all we ever heard.

If you value your life, home, or shop stay away from cellulose.

The only proof of fire retardant abilities of cellulose is being able to take old cellulose out of an old building & try & light it. No one has provided this proof to me yet.

I won't accept any other proof & you shouldn't either.

Talk & words of assurance are cheap your life & home & shop are not.

I have had insulation contractors on other forums E-mail me & tell me of their similar experiences. One told me they would only install cellulose if the person wanting it would sign a release that absolved the contractor of all responsibility if there was a fire.
If I have a choice cellulose products will never be put into any building of mine.

Its a little more work but using rock-wool or fiberglass is a better choice.

I put this on another forum & the gentleman building his shop happened to have some older cellulose & tried & up in flames real quick & he showed the black charred remains to the sales man &....."Saterday AM I had a insulation guy come over for a quote on insulation and he wanted to sell me cellulose well I took him over to the burn spot and then he decided that he also wanted vacuumed out his cellulose too. I asked why he does it and he said that for the similar reasoning." Some people will jump at anything to save money or a little work. Also pumping in insulation into wall may work but you don't know how many voids without insulation your leaving behind.

Cellulose don't let anyone tell you its a good product. Of all the insulation products 1. rock wool 2. fiberglass. cellulose never. Rock wool is made from spun copper slag & fiberglass is fiberglass. rock wool is the more fire resistant insulation of the two. But either one is way better than cellulose.

[John A. Williams]

Looks like a great place to spend your time. I say fix it up, and you'll love it.

[Peter Lyon]

Count me in as one more who thinks the present structure is well worth saving. You've received a lot of good ideas here -- removing one door and fixing the other, replacing the roof (remove existing, sheath, felt, and replace with metal), insulate the ceiling and closing up the soffits and gable ends.

While you're at it, you may want to consider inserting some high placed windows along the wall that gets the most sun (south? west?).

I'm not sure that I would (at least initially) build the false ceiling after all of that unless you feel it's necessary to keep the place warm.

I'm also not a huge fan of that drywall either. If it were me, I'd start a process where I removed it (perhaps wall by wall) and reinsulated where mold/moisture is/was a problem and replace with some type of solid surface (sheet siding, cedar, etc.).

Good luck -- and keep us posted.

[Brian Weick]

Bart,
I used cellulose insulation - once - about 20 years ago and ,yes, I agree with you that is not the best "Blown insulation" to use, but there is another insulation that you can use ,owens corning blown in fiberglass that they have on the market today that is fire rated and dooes a much better job of filling the cavities and is fire retaardent.
Brian

[Nathan Conner]

So, tomorrow morning at 7am the project begins.

After taking a look at all your advice, I decided to bite the bullet and get the roof done. It's well worth it to seal up and insulate the building, and after putting my dream lathe and dream BS in there, I can't afford to watch them sit unused over the winter again, rusting.

So, I had a bunch of roofing contractors out to look over the last week or two. Most didn't want the job - access was too hard, it was too small, etc., etc. Finally, last week, my search ended. I found a couple of guys on Craigslist with a fairly new roofing business who will R&R the roof with good sheeting, two layers of 30# paper, and ice/water barrier, then put down shingles. All materials included, one-day job for $1800. They're HUNGRY, and seem excited to have me as a reference.

Considering that HD and Lowe's both wanted $6k+ to do it, I was tickled, and we'll see how it goes. I agreed to do the boxing-in of the roof, and repair the gable-ends, and the insulation, but they're doing all the HARD work.

Then, yesterday, as if by magic, a check showed up from the mortgage co. for escrow overpayment for just over the cost of the roof! Can it get any better than this? Oh, yes, it can! I chatted on the phone last night with one of the guys coming out in the morning to see what they need - turns out they may refund me ALL of the labor costs in trade for a bunch of computer work. They need a website, some custom software, a laptop purchase/setup, and other things. Lo and behold, my college and employer tell me I'm qualified to do just that!

Anyhow, thanks for all the advice. I'll spend the day down there cleaning and working along with the guys, taking photos and watching. It's so rare you get to sit and watch someone else work - I'll take a day to do THAT!

After they leave, there's some insulation, removal of the big door, a couple of little walls to build, and it's a done deal.

Great advice, everyone! Thanks! I'll post a "finished" picture or two. Maybe one of me with a big smile on my face and a Guinness in hand.

[Don Bullock]

I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures. Congratulations.

[dan moran]

i dont understand why 24" centers are too big. throw up some 1/2" osb or cdx it doesnt matter if a roof gets thrown on it within a couple of days and at least the osb is flat to begin with. use H clips in the ply between the rafters to hold it together and you're done..

[Mike Wilkins]

From personal experience, I would do something about that roof. When I first moved into our home, I had to place my shop inventory in the poorly built shed in the back yard. When I got the funds to add to this, the first order of business was to put a gable roof on the original shed (replacing the original shed roof).
I thought I could just cover everyting with tarps while the rafters were built and roof put on. The rain still got into boxes of tools/supplies/books. I finally got the roof on, but in hindsight I should have moved everthing into a rented storage shed. 5 years later I still find something with rust on it.
You have an advantage with the detached garage to temporarily store your toys/tools while the roof is dealt with. This should be the first order of business, as leaks will not go away on their own. Beef up the framing, place OSB or plywood on top, and cover with shingles to match the house. You can always come back later to insulate the roof on the inside for better comfort.
As for the garage doors; remove the wooden one, frame the wall, and re-side the framing.
Some time spent dealing with these things now will pay big dividends later on down the road. Then you can start dealing with new tools to buyl.