anyone notice rockler's newest addition?

[Emmanuel Weber]

Sarge,

I agree with you on the fact that to break down sheet good you can build up a jig and provide similar functionnality at a fraction of the cost.

I am not familiar with the EZ system so I will not comment.

In the case of festool, if you add the MFT into the mix (or two in my case) you not only get a rail to make smooth straight cut with a circular saw but you get a system that you can quickly and accurately setup. Once you square the fence of the MFT with the guide rail (and add a sticky tape to the fence) you can breakdown sheet good extremely fast and accurately without even using a tape measure.
At the end of the day its a question on how much sheet goods you need to break down, how accurate you can be positioning a jig over and over how much money you can or want to spend, how much room you have in your shop (I whish I could fit that slider) etc

Emmanuel

[Don Bullock]

...I do like the FT track for sheet goods, but I also like the E Z. I wouldn't purchase either as I can do the same precision cut with sheet goods jig made of a piece of 1/2" MDF with a 1/2" MDF fence built on top. That jig can be made in under 30 minutes and the cost of a 4' for cross-cut and 8' for rip is the cost of about 1/2 of a sheet of 1/2" MDF. Cheap! A simple, quick score with a razor knife though the first layer of ply with blue painters tape on placed over the cut line ensures the same splinter free cut....Sarge...

Sarge, thanks for the comment about a sheet goods jig. That's something that I haven't seen yet. or at least I don't remember seeing one. Is there a thread, here or elsewhere that you have shown it? While I'm not cutting much sheet goods right now, I may need to in the near future. A jid for the TS sounds like something I'd be interested in. Thanks.

It's too bad that threads like this always become places for "brand wars" rather than peope just letting it go. The OP was just surprised and pleased to see that Rockler had joined the list of Festool dealers and was finally able to see some for the first time. Obviously, like all tools, they aren't for everyone, nor did anyone say that they are.

[Dan Clark]

As Jason and John have pointed out, the type of work you do is a major factor in defining the best tool.

Another is your working conditions. Besides the type of work we do, what tends to drive our point of view are the constraints under which we work. We comment based on our own needs and constraints, and tend to forget that others have different needs and constaints.

If you have a large, dedicated shop with lots of open space, fixed machines like large table saws may make the most sense. With a lot of empty wall space, a panel saw for cutting sheets may be the best option. A decent sized, fixed shop makes a large, fixed dust collection system a worthwhile investment.

OTOH, if you have a garage shop that must serve multiple purposes, and your have neither a nice flat driveway nor decent weather most of the time, then portability, storability, and working in a compact space become critical. Fixed dust collecting might be difficult or impossible. Having a large table saw, even if movable, may a major hassle at best or impossible at worst.

The OP mentioned that he was building a deck and also cabinets. For a deck, unless your shop was very close, a tablesaw would NOT be the tool of choice. For cutting most of the deck boards, a miter saw would be best with maybe a rail-guided CS for trimming the ends.

For cabinet work, it would depend on how much you do. Rail-guided CS's work nicely for breaking down sheet goods. I get great cuts with my TS55 + rails. OTOH, if you're making dozens of cabinets a month, a table saw might be the better choice.

In other words, it all depends. As Keith points out and in my opinion, perceived value depends on what you want to do, where you want to do it, and obviously how much money you want to spend.

In Rockler, the OP got the warm and fuzzies for Festool. But was it because of the name and perceived quality? Because he could do quality work in places other than a fixed shop? Does the Festool approach best meet his space and portability requirements? Does he like the systemness? Is it dust collection? What's the driving force for HIM?

Regards,

Dan.

[Loren Hedahl]

Here is my cost justification: Festool vs Dedicated Shop

My entrance into Festool was when I came to the conclusion that my garage/shop needed extensive upgrading and expanding to accommodate my woodworking, i.e., electrical service, dust control, space, etc.

More graphically, I found myself and everything in my shop cloaked and choked in sawdust after using my shop-made guided circular saw setup. The results were excellent, but the mess wasn't. The cleanup time was extensive and not much fun as was the choking and the coughing the next few days. A similar scenario occurred when using my contractor's saw, compound miter saw and radial arm saw, as well as the various sanders I was using.

The Festool saw and shop vac has cleaned up these operations to an acceptable level at a whole lot cheaper than building a new dedicated shop, or remodeling my existing space. I only have one Festool Rotex sander, so far, but get acceptable dust control hooking the Festool vac up to my existing quarter sheet sander.

Also, I'm finding the Festool stuff leaves so little mess, I am bringing it into the house for some remodel work I'm doing on my own house.

[Jim Becker]

For some reason unknown to me I haven't taken the plunge but I am still open minded and looking for the justification. Possibly nothing will get me over the edge except a few hours of personal experience with one in my own hand.

Keith, that's exactly what I did...spent several hours with the whole lot of the product line in my shop with Bob's help and participation. I later had a few folks over to do the same as a "social function". I do believe that it's important to test drive tools when you have the opportunity. At least with this product line, you can even do that out in the hinterlands given the 30 day satisfaction policy. You may like the whole line or only certain tools, depending on your needs and expectations. Or maybe even decide that none of them are appropriate for you. All of those options are very nice to have!

[John Stevens]

The OP was either looking at the wrong tools or he mis-typed. [snip]
And their color scheme is green and BLACK.

Dan, the OP was referring to the systainers, which are green and white. The tools themselves are not green and black. They're midnight blue with green controls. Hold the power cord up next to the body of the tool in bright light and you'll see for yourself. Pretty cool, eh?

Regards,

John

[John Thompson]

Sarge, thanks for the comment about a sheet goods jig. That's something that I haven't seen yet. or at least I don't remember seeing one. Is there a thread, here or elsewhere that you have shown it? While I'm not cutting much sheet goods right now, I may need to in the near future. A jid for the TS sounds like something I'd be interested in. Thanks.

It's too bad that threads like this always become places for "brand wars" rather than peope just letting it go. The OP was just surprised and pleased to see that Rockler had joined the list of Festool dealers and was finally able to see some for the first time. Obviously, like all tools, they aren't for everyone, nor did anyone say that they are.

Morning Don..

Actually Don, my jigs are made to use with my PC mag circular for sheet goods the same as the FT and EZ uses. As Dan and Loren pointed out, the decision of "how" and "what" need to be based on "your" needs and "your" shop conditions as we all have various ingredients that blend to derive at an answer to those questiions.

I use a very high percentage of solid stock with a sheet being thrown into the mix every so often. And I live in Atlanta which allows the outer doors to be opened when necessary about 9-10 months a year. I lose heat when I do it, but my space heater tapped from an over-head 1/2" gas pipe that goes to the fireplace starter can bring the shop back to 68-70 degrees in under 6 minutes when I have opened them even in the coldest months. Hence.. I can take it outside the door in the large drive-way when sheet goods come into play.

So.. I have no need for major dust collection with sheet goods as someone say in a basement shop that has a central AC-Heater located in the same room that will transport fine dust through ducts to the un-protected family up-stairs. I keep some tools that are dust makers in my rear shop which is a 1/2 basement and has a central AC. But.. I won't use them there as they are rolled quickly up to the cut area by the outer doors and the Cyclone awaits.

So.. I don't need an expensive Festool circular as I get fantastic cuts on sheet goods with a simple home-made jig anyone can build in minutes. And the dust is never a problem with the conditions I described. I am not either "for or against" FT in general. It has it's place and that is up to the individual to decide if it best meets their needs and budget as Dan and Loren mentioned.

What I am against is for an in-experienced WW to get caught up in the hype and be influenced to believe that he cannot get an acceptable end result without the "super duper poopy scooper" that is so automated that it takes the "craft" out of "craftsman-ship". That over-looks the needs to learn the basics and he will never become a master craftsman that is capable of taking any given situation and finding a way to succeed without reliance on the tool being more efficeint than the operator.

I just made up my jig Don... my wife is gone to a meeting so I can't post a pic of it. She may get back before I leave for work at 1 PM EST and maybe not. If not.. I will get a picture she can put in the computer for me (I am computer challenged in these matters ) and I will post. If not early afternoon.. then late this evening as I don't get home till aound 11 PM Mon.-Thur. as I only work 4 days a week.

The jig is simply 11" wide to start. A 2" wide piece of MDF fence is placed and squared 6" from the lead edge and attached. That leaves 2" opposite of the saw side of the fence for clamping. Place the saw base against the fence and make a cut. You now have a fence that when the saw is placed on top of the jig that the saw-blade drops off the outside outer edge of the saw side just as FT and EZ.

You then use a tape measure and make a tick on each side of the panel. Align the front edge to those ticks and clamp. The saw goes on the flat jig top and rides the fence. There is no grove for the saw to ride in (just a 5" wide flat surface to the fence) like the FT or EZ. But the day I can't keep a circular saw against a 1/2" high fence for 48" or 96" is the day I will shut down my shop. That will be the day that the craft abandoned the craftsman in my shop!


Regards...

Sarge..

[Keith Outten]

Jim,

I have yet to purchase any hand power tools for CNU's sign shop so a decision has to be made soon concerning vendors, makes and models. Our sign shop is located within our Architects office building so cleanliness is a bit more important than in my stand alone shop at home. Of course less mess during fabrication means less mess to cleanup at the end of the day. These are the reasons I keep looking at Festool sanders and their router.

.

[John Thompson]

Sarge, thanks for the comment about a sheet goods jig. That's something that I haven't seen yet. or at least I don't remember seeing one. Is there a thread, here or elsewhere that you have shown it? While I'm not cutting much sheet goods right now, I may need to in the near future. A jid for the TS sounds like something I'd be interested in. Thanks.

It's too bad that threads like this always become places for "brand wars" rather than peope just letting it go. The OP was just surprised and pleased to see that Rockler had joined the list of Festool dealers and was finally able to see some for the first time. Obviously, like all tools, they aren't for everyone, nor did anyone say that they are.

Here ya go Don. as she arrived back early. Hasty set up but the pics are kind pretty much self-explanatory.....

Sarge..

[Bob Childress]

To return to Frank's original post, it is nice to have a hands-on opportunity to feel and play with any tool, not just Festo. But I suspect, much like when Woodcraft first picked up the line, it will be a while before the sales staff are up to speed. So don't get frustrated if they can't answer all your questions right off, just heft the tools and then you can still talk to Bob M or one of the experienced dealers if you have technical questions.

The best thing about having local dealerships is actually being able to pick up a quick box of sandpaper and the like when you run out in the middle of a project.

[Byron Trantham]

I certainly can't disagree with you assessment of the quality of Festool's line of power tools. Their price point keeps them out of the best value catagory for me though and I have always been able to find suitable alternatives that serve both professional and amateur woodworkers alike.

How do you justify the price? Surely it can't be based on just dust collection. Every time I visit a Festool display I just can't imagine how I could justify a purchase. I'm open minded about the price of tools and I own some big ticket equipment but each and every purchase has to meet a best value metric before I can justify the expense.

.

A men! Nice but not necessary.

[Tim Sproul]

john, you're absolutely right. since i'm more of a hobbyist cabinetmaker than a furnituremaker i think the domino can definitely wait for now. am i the only one that derives a masochistic thrill out of hefting 3/4" melamine sheets on to the table saw? i get a kick out of knocking those panels down to thirds with the exaktor sliding table. i think i'll hold off on the atf 55 for now as well. thanks for everyone's opinions!

Frank,

You need a Gorilla Gripper.

The Domino is quite good for sheetgoods cabinetry. Allows you to cut sheets like you're doing pocket holes or simple butts and screws but gives you the advantage of dadoes/rabbets - positive alignment during assembly. This is all without sacrificing on speed or joint strength. For this purpose, biscuits give you most of the same...although IME biscuits are more sloppy than Dominos.

[frank shic]

tim, thanks for the advice - i already have TWO gorilla grippers although they don't really do anything for getting it up on to the sliding table!

as accurate as the domino may be, it still seems slower to me than stapling and screwing the cabinets together since there's no clamping or waiting for the glue to dry. the only time i would purchase a domino would be if i decided to build complicated furniture in the future. for now, i'll just be pocket-screwing as much as i can. as far as biscuits go, i sold off my PC557 two months ago when i realized that it wasn't going to be that useful for either cabinetry or furnituremaking.

it was indeed a thrill to actually HANDLE some of the legendary festools in person last week. i never realized how light the 55 was compared to my porter cable mag saw and the domino was one SOLID piece of equipment.

[Henry Cavanaugh]

Previously I have used a sander with a dust canister which did not do A good job in dust control. I purchased a Festool sander (150-3 ets) and 22 vac. Sanding mdf there was no dust and I thought the vac didnt work until upon closer inspection it was on but quiter than sander so I could'nt hear it. I will try the vac to my older sander to see the results but havent yet.