Asian vs. Italian Bandsaws

[Dave MacArthur]

I am extremely impressed by this thread. Warren's post was well-reasoned and seemed objective. The fact that Mr. Balolia takes the time to respond, and that such issues clearly are of serious concern to him, and the obvious pride he has in the continued quality improvement of his company... wow. It seems obvious to me that somewhere down the road, in some design/cost meeting at Grizzly, this sort of conversation will have a positive impact--and just as obvious this receptive quality mindset already exists and has resulted in a great company.

I feel a bit like a cheerleader here, but honestly... after 15 years of listening to speeches on "total quality" and "quality mindset" in the Air Force, I have never seen such a good example of the process being lived by leadership. Very impressed.

[Jake Helmboldt]

Interesting thread. I'm thinking about going to the Woodworks Show here next month, partly so I can see Laguna and MiniMax stuff in person. I see so much about them and I want to see if all the superlatives are borne out.

I don't have any Grizz stuff, but I do have a couple ShopFox machines including their 19" bandsaw. I have been pretty satisfied, and for the money I'll be surprised if a saw that is 2x+ as much is worth that (to me and my needs).

I think the refined, CNC'ed pieces and more finely manufactured items account for much of the difference. The euro guides on my SF work fine, though they use thumbscrews and aren't as nice as the MM. But I'm guessing they work as well, albeit taking longer to set up. The 2hp motor isn't nearly as powerful, but I've never bogged it down so it works for me. And I'll tell ya, if I had bought one of the MMs that people have been discussing latley that required fiddling and modification to get a 1/4" blade to work I'd be PO'ed. My SF has run 1/4-3/4 blades just fine.

As for the "pot metal"; my cast aluminum block that holds the guides is fine. No cracking, stripping, etc. And the notion that CNC'ed parts are stronger is a fallacy. Shiraz being a metal machinist can probably corroborate this. Cast al pieces are often stronger than milled because the milling removes material and impacts the grain structure (or something to that effect), whereas casting helps optimize grain structure and alignment, but it doesn't look as pretty. Function over form.

Someone mentioned the car analogy, and I think it is accurate. The Corvette out-performs many supercars in some respects at a fraction of the price. But the styling and refinement just isn't there, nor is the cachet. But it works and at a much lower price point.

JH

[Chris McDowell]

Good thread. As I have said before, it says a lot about a company when the President takes time to answer questions and face criticism on a forum.

I visited the Grizzly showroom in Springfield,Missouri a few months back. I was looking at sliders and while I was there I naturally looked over the other offerings. Let me just say this is my very humble opinion, but Grizzly is producing some very nice offerings in cabinet saws, wide belt sanders, and band saws.

Is it better than MiniMax? That is for each individual to decide. I'm not buying any of their sliders because they still have some shortcomings which Todd Solomon and others have talked about in other threads. But I bet I could go back in a couple of years and those problems would be resolved.

Companies prosper or die due to leadership. There are reasons Grizzly is growing and Home Depot is struggling. Just my.02 cents.

Chris

[Greg Pavlov]

Warren, I checked the models of the machines that you purchased 8 years ago and must say that I tend to agree with your assesment of those particular machines, both of which have been discontinued by us for obvious reasons. ......

Sounds like you folks should offer Warren a hefty gift certificate towards his next Grizzly purchase, for obvious reasons.

[John Karam]

First off I'd like to say Mr. Balolia, I really respect that you visit and communicate with the people on this forum.

I feel that the idea of "Getting what you paid for" is deeply ingrained in our society. I know I feel that way often though I wish to believe otherwise. It's odd that I'm convinced that grizzlys 8'' jointer is a great tool but I questioned the quality of their bandsaw based on price.

When I was saying I'd probably buy the laguna over the grizzly bandsaw, I should have made it more of a general statement. I meant more along the lines of in any case I would rather grab the "Expensive Companys" tool over the "Low Cost Companys" tool because of how long I should be able to expect it to last.

From the research that I have been doing, I definitely agree that the quality of Grizzly tools have greatly improved. Most horror stories that I hear are from the past. I think the reason I get nervous about it now is because I'm looking to purchase a jointer, bandsaw, and planer...all potentially grizzly.

I do have one question for Mr. Balolia however. Why is it that your company has a short warranty (1 year I believe) policy on their tools compared to other companies such as Powermatic (5 years I've seen, don't know if thats for all tools)?

Thanks for the thoughts and comments :-)

[Steve Rybicki]

I feel that the idea of "Getting what you paid for" is deeply ingrained in our society.

Having owned a business for the past 20 years has taught me that this is only a vague generalization that falls apart in many situations. There is a premium that some companies charge for their "name". Buying the best will sometimes cost substantially more, even if the actual difference in performance is very small. Surprisingly, the best product is quite often the cheaper one.

Distribution networks can greatly affect costs. As Shiraz pointed out, and most everyone knows, Grizzly sells direct. This is how I prefer to buy products. Others prefer the extra cog in the network and appreciate local service, but that will cost you. In my situation, service from any company is long distance when it comes to woodworking, so that affects my choice.

There are many other areas in which a company can save substantial money and still put out a quality product that competes with the best. Some companies are simply more efficient. To evaluate quality, I prefer to not go by price. I don't like paying for "names". I don't like paying for extra cogs in distribution and I don't like paying for inefficiency. Therefore, I evaluate my tools from user comments, features and any actual experience I can get from using it before purchase.

At this point, I've purchased two Grizzly tools and I'm sure they are not the best money can buy, but they may be the best in their class, and they are certainly a great value for what they'll do.

[Chris Barnett]

Would be nice if the detailed design/manufacturing drawings including bills of materials and any test results, were available for review before purchasing tools. Don't mind paying top, middle or bottom dollar for any tool; my only concern is not knowing what I am getting for that hard earned dollar. If I can see a tool, I can often determine if it will meet my needs, and if the component material spec is known, little can be hidden. Would rather see a tool steel listed as a bearing carrier though instead of aluminum, but at least one of the very best aluminum alloys is apparently being used.

My first Griz delivered this week is the G1023SLW and am now looking at the Griz 513X bandsaw and one other manufacturer, with a planer and lathe to follow shortly, and maybe a few other items later. Trying to make up for lost time with not that many left. I would be quite happy if it worked out that the entire shop was green; it's restful to the eyes.

Above all else, if a manufacturer is truthful, so that a customer can make an informed decision, seems that the manufacturer should more likely stay in business during rough times as well as the fat years. Will say though that personal involvement, i.e. direct discussion via SMC, to the point that customers' needs are met, means a lot, and to the extent that the clientele wishes the very best [continued] success for that manufacturer.

Will hush now....have probably said too much already, being an unknown.

[Ron Williams]

At the AWFS I purchased my first Grizzly machines. To say that I am pleased would be a huge understatement. I went to that show looking for a new jointer, Planer and table saw. It never crossed my mind that I would purchase grizzly machines. I purchased an Extreme series 12" jointer and the Extreme series 15" Planer. I spent all day looking at machines from all over the world and bought what I considered to be the Best in Class. I did not purchase a table saw because I am considering a slider and have not made my mind up yet. On top of being pleased I stayed under budget.
Ron

[Greg Pavlov]

Having owned a business for the past 20 years has taught me that this is only a vague generalization that falls apart in many situations. There is a premium that some companies charge for their "name". Buying the best will sometimes cost substantially more, even if the actual difference in performance is very small. Surprisingly, the best product is quite often the cheaper one. ......

My view of it is that you *always* get what you pay for, but you don't always know *what* you are paying for (and it is often different from what you think you are paying for...)

[Mike Spanbauer]

I think that several here, and Shiraz included, have highlighted the differences really. Any modern manufacturing facility attempts to build the products to the specification of the vendor every time. Accuracy and quality control is where there is a difference in *some* cases. To produce a seriously high quality machine AND have flawless tolerances on every unit, would drive a products cost up 25-30% in terms of real margin... this would equate to a 50-75% premium in product price (additional training required, staff retention, etc... there is a heck of a lot that goes into supporting that caliber of quality).

I own an MM16, it's built like a tank and frankly, there is little it can't handle in my current shop needs. The things that it can't are why I am considering an MM20 or more likely an MM24. I did not receive a pristine MM16, but the few issues I did have were readily addressed in a professional manner, no questions asked by the company. In short, I was highly satisifed with their handling.

Grizzly is one of (perhaps the) only vendor who is specifying a modern bandsaw style with the same duty rating as the Italian machines now.

I've not had my hands on one so I can't compare them side by side though. The bottom line is you'll have to be comfortable with your own choice or you'll have buyer's remorse every time you turn the machine on. I have none with my MM16.

mike

[Allen Bookout]

The bottom line is you'll have to be comfortable with your own choice or you'll have buyer's remorse every time you turn the machine on.

mike

Truer words were never spoken!!!!!!!

[Luciano Burtini]

I am not trying to be confrontational, but why would you pay almost twice as much for an Italian bandsaw vs. an asian bandsaw?

Mama Mia!

Why would you pay more for a Ferrari than a Hyundai?

[Bruce Benjamin]

I am extremely impressed by this thread. Warren's post was well-reasoned and seemed objective. The fact that Mr. Balolia takes the time to respond, and that such issues clearly are of serious concern to him, and the obvious pride he has in the continued quality improvement of his company... wow. It seems obvious to me that somewhere down the road, in some design/cost meeting at Grizzly, this sort of conversation will have a positive impact--and just as obvious this receptive quality mindset already exists and has resulted in a great company.

I feel a bit like a cheerleader here, but honestly... after 15 years of listening to speeches on "total quality" and "quality mindset" in the Air Force, I have never seen such a good example of the process being lived by leadership. Very impressed.

I wonder, if the owners of Steel City, Delta, MM, Laguna, General, etc., came onto this forum, how many of you would be impressed when they all say that their company produces machines that are as good as anyone else's? I'm not saying that what Papa Grizz is saying isn't true, (or what he believes to be true, at least) but why are you guys so impressed by this? It sounds like very inexpensive advertising to me. Read a thread that puts your company in a bad light, submit a post that tells everyone how great your company is. Make sure you include Bold print and exclamation points! (That means that he meant what he said, I guess.) He didn't even have to spend too much time doing it. This time he quoted what he wrote last time. There's little doubt that there are at least a few people who may have been on the fence about Grizzly versus another brand and these speeches by Papa Grizz just pulled them onto his side. If I owned a company like this I'd do exactly the same thing. It's money in the bank with very little time spent.

He has the right to come and defend his company for sure but how would everyone feel about this forum if every company owner did this? I know that when Dino from EZ Smart answers questions or defends his company some people get really bent out of shape. He builds first rate products and they're built in the USA. How many machines has Papa Grizz donated to the Freedom Pen cause? Are any of the Grizz machines built in the USA? I realize that the two companies build entirely different products. But both companies' products and owners have a presence here on SMC.

I really wonder how the cheerleaders would feel about the owners of the competing companies having a little head to head debate about the quality of their machines versus the competition. It's easy to look good when you're the only one tooting their own horn. Would Papa Grizz still look as good if MM or Laguna came onto this forum to question the assertion that the Grizz machines are as good as theirs? Maybe, maybe not.

Why don't more company owners toot their own horn on these forums? I don't know. They are missing out on a great opportunity. People seem to appreciate it for the most part and it's certainly an inexpensive way to get people thinking about your company. It shows that Papa Grizz has some very good business sense compared to some of the other WW tool companies out there. I don't know how much of an impact it would have for the larger companies but why don't the owners of Sunhill or Steel City or one of the other smaller companies do this? I'm sure they would argue the same points that Papa Grizz has and say that their tools are just as good as the more expensive ones too. They are definitely missing out on some good, (and inexpensive) publicity.

Bruce

[Joe Mioux]

I chose my MM16 based on several factors.

The weight of the fly wheels is pretty impressive when compared to other 16 inch band saw wheels.

Cast Iron Fence,

Foot Brake.... This is a really nice feature once you have the bands saw wheels turning and you want them to slow down quickly.

Large motor,

the guides are nice

Since i haven't place a 1/4 inch blade on this saw, I haven't had any problems that are associated with it and the saw.

16 inch resaw height is nice, but has yet to be used.

If you never owned any Bandsaws in the past, and you buy a mm16, you may feel or say "what is the big deal about this saw". However, once you start comparing the components, i.e. weight, size gauge, etc you soon appreciate the differences.

Joe

[Steve Rybicki]

Would Papa Grizz still look as good if MM or Laguna came onto this forum to question the assertion that the Grizz machines are as good as theirs?

Why do you call him "Papa Grizz"? It sounds disrespectful to me. Then again, your whole post sounded a bit disparaging towards Grizzly. Maybe I'm missing something and that is what he prefers being called.