Installation Charges

[Todd Jensen]

Amen, Jim, and the others who've brought similar sentiments. At one of the first business classes I took when I started out on my own, one of the presenters said if he started to get more than 10% of his bids, he knew his prices were too low. A little extreme perhaps, but the best thing you can do for your Excedrin cabinet is to wrap your head around the fact that losing bids due to price is a great thing. I am too expensive for many people, but for MY customers/clients, I provide a tremendous value. I never like to think that I'm too expensive; you just have to find the right clients. I charge what I need to make - overhead, salary, and profit. Anything less and you're giving your valuable time away and undermining your skills.
Along the same lines, in the past when I've decided to bid low to get the job or after second guessing myself, without fail these jobs turn out to be the biggest losers. Either the job is more involved than I allowed for or the clients are more difficult, and usually both seem to go hand in hand. And work for friends and family - as much as I liked to help in the beginning, I really think its a bad idea. It clouds your business sense and while everything may go fine, the ingredients are certainly present for disastrous results. If anything, I limit my friends and family work to cash sidework. And $600 to build and install 2 maple cabinets - you're cheap, my friend. I'd charge $150 to just pull out my tools and install them, much less build them. JMO, at the very least I think you're being extremely fair. Just break it down; can you build these cabinets and install them in a day? 2 days? 3? I'm talking designing, building, spraying, hardware, scheduling the install, tools out, house protection, cleanup? When you really break it down I bet you're taking 4 days for this tiny project(32 hours plus/minus). $600/32 = $18.75/hour. Pretty cheap for a custom cabinet builder. Good luck, sorry for the ramble.

[James Jaragosky]

My low end pricing has always been if it cost $1000. For the product it will cost you that much to get it installed. Now there are exceptions going up and down this scale but not many.Also do not give friends and family a break on cost. Because any jobs you get referred by this customer will have that lowball pricing expectation in advance, and you will find yourself in an endless cycle of justifying your pricing.And I agree with the above comments that warn you to walk away from difficult customers they are not worth the hassle, let them buy the crap from the borg and next time maybe they will see that you actually are the better value.When I get an offer to bid on a job I don’t want or am leery about, whether the job sux’s or the customer does, I always double my normal bid quote. Sometimes they still hire me, and usually my instincts were correct and even the extra money does not make the job worth it. Good luck. Jim

[Rick Gooden]

The pricing that you have given looks to be a disaster in the making. Nobody wins when selling cheap, not you, or the client. Pricing should not be based on emotion or a gut feeling, but a formula that insures that you make money. Isn't what you do worth something? Also, if you are turning out a quality product, low ball pricing is a disservice to other quality woodworkers. I would tell the client to go to the borg for that price and good luck. Just my opinion.

[Bruce Benjamin]

...I know I quoted them on the low end but I did that because it's a friend of mine. It is still somewhat disconcerting.

It doesn't sound like this is one of your best, long-time friends. They are questioning what is a very generous deal from you and you justifiably don't feel great about it. If they were good friends they would trust you not to rip them off. It sounds like they're just using your relationship to get a good deal. If you still want to be friends with them you should just pass on the job. If you do the job for what you quoted, (Or less) you'll feel bad and it doesn't sound like they'll be satisfied either.

I've done work for people I was well acquainted with and sort of considered to be friends. I usually cut them a little bit of a break but I've always had a little leeway for that sort of thing anyway. The only people I really give a break to is a few very close friends and my family. The reason being is that with my close friends we usually do each other favors anyway and I can expect something in return in the future. With my family, well, that's obvious.

Bruce

[Norman Pyles]

When you drop your price to freinds. No good deed goes unpunished.

[Dan Barr]

In this country of "throw away" everything, no one knows the value of anything because they have never built anything. thats why they all think, oh, well its just a cabinet and it couldnt possible be worth "hundreds" of dollars. (this gets under my skin like nothing else.)

Insulting to you and your skills, period

Like previously stated:

-NEVER underquote your bids.
-Always increase bids for those who are difficult about the project
-Be just as selective about your customers as they are about you!
(LET ME DRIVE THIS ONE HOME!!!!!)
-Keep your business sense with friends and family
-Walk away from those who dont know what something is worth
-Let them buy the borg crap and learn the hard way.


v/r

Dan Barr

[Bruce Benjamin]

When you drop your price to freinds. No good deed goes unpunished.

I guess it just depends on who you have as friends and how you treat each other. My best friend is a mechanic who owns his own shop. He works on my vehicles and gives me the parts for slightly above cost and cuts his labor way down. I've done the same for him. I've helped him move, remodel part of his garage and install a new garage door, install new windows, given him a hand installing a couple of engines, etc., etc. He's helped me move furniture, lift my jointer onto a mobile base, helped me do all sorts of things around my house, etc., etc. I built some cabinets for his bathroom. How could I charge him full price when he doesn't charge me anything close to full price for fixing my cars? I've known my parents' neighbors since I was 5 years old. They've done so many things for me over the years. I gave them a good deal painting part of their house. There have been several of other friends and family members I've done this sort of thing for and I've never regretted it. However, if they aren't what I would consider close friends I won't cut them too much of a break. I've had a couple of not-too-close friends ask for an estimate and were disappointed with the quote. I didn't back down because I didn't feel like doing them a favor. They weren't too happy about it and our relationship never went any farther than that. I feel that I came out ahead because I don't want friends who expect a break at my expense. But for those I have helped me out I always finished and felt good about it. I could never make it a rule not to help out people I know by giving them a good deal. I do that on a case by case basis. If I have to turn down other regular paying jobs to help out a friend I won't do it or I'll charge full price. But if I'm not busy I figure it's good to be nice to my friends because I know they'll end up repaying me in some way or that they already have in the past. If you pick your friend right you'll find that what comes around goes around. YMMV, of course.

Bruce

[Mike Cutler]

Russell

That price is extremely "fair". I would only quote a price for a job like that to my mom, and even then I'd be hagglin' for a spaghetti dinner included.
At 100/linear foot, that is one heluva deal, and I highly doubt that the 'borg can meet that price on an install. Your friend is out of line
Todd is alot closer to the actual cost that should be quoted.

I'd walk away and protect the friendship in this instance.

[Chris Padilla]

The way I work with friends is to provide free labor and only charge them for materials. Normally, I'm the one to suggest something they may want and it is usually for a special occasion. My last project was a nice shelving system in a nook next to their fireplace...and I did it for them for the birth of their first child. They paid materials, I did all the labor for free.

[Bruce Benjamin]

The way I work with friends is to provide free labor and only charge them for materials. Normally, I'm the one to suggest something they may want and it is usually for a special occasion. My last project was a nice shelving system in a nook next to their fireplace...and I did it for them for the birth of their first child. They paid materials, I did all the labor for free.

Very decent of you. I'm surprised there are so many people who won't even give their friends a break. My friends sure have given me a break over the years so, as I said in my previous post, what comes around goes around. I'm sure your work will be remembered as a gift as much as it will be for it's quality.

Bruce

[Dan Barr]

I know that i do things for free as well.

I'm carving a plaque for my friends first child. (gift) boxes and a picture frame i built went to my mother-in-law. (i didnt intend that to happen but the S.O. gave them away.) why, i ought to........

I helped one friend with an install of a climbing board.

But,

If they wanted a piece of furniture or a set of cabinets or whatever that "large" professional grade product may be, im going to tell them that this is now business. They dont get free materials or labor. that would hurt me and my ability to put food on the table. aint no one taking money out of my pocket but me.

My mother-in-law thought that she would just casually ask what it would take to build a coffee table. i told her "about $1000.00 +/- a few hundred depending on design, construction and finish. she instantly stopped talking about the coffee table. my S.O. had made the ever famous statement that "oh, dan can do that". Then the mother-in-law felt abliged to pursue the issue until i quoted a rough number.

It's just too easy to end up in one of those situations where someone ends up expecting you to do something and they dont realize what it entails or they know they are taking advantage of you and somehow they think they are entitled to a freebie. Then, youre too "kind" to set them straight from the beginning.

nuff said,

dan

[Brian Weick]

If you've estimated what you think is a fair price, don't waste your time justifying your price for them, unless you are going to charge them for the time spent justifying it.

Let them do the legwork.

Todd

Ditto,
Do you value your work , never question your pricing after you have given it to your customer. It is the price as stated on the estimate, and the final production will show that. If it doesn't , or your unsure of the project then you probably should not take the job-I believe in a confident proposal - if it's there- they will see it in the proposal and on your face, if not- you lost the job. You may be underbid, so- what. there are those that are out there with no insurance and fly by nights. that is easy to overcome-a professional proposal, a portfolio, material sheets, and credible statements from other clients. You are talking about hanging 2 wall cabinets- frankly -if it is a standard installation project that should not take you more than 1 hr for both - piece of cake - I would charge $ 250 if that's all that needs to be done- marks,level ,shim, screw fasten and plug- that's $250.00 an hr, minus - all the expenses involved in getting the job completed;ie gas, misc items. I could do that all day 8 hrs a day 5 days a week that's $10,000 a week - $520,000 a year for just mounting 2 cabinets an hr ~ does that ever happen that often- no , but look at what it could be if someone kept feeding you this kind of work. so is your price fare- you tell me? if we went by your figure $728,000 per year
so If you know your time frames for work on hanging wall cabinets- ,,$250.00 for an hours work is very fair price-and extremely lucrative ~ all being square- your insured and legitimate and are an excellent craftsman with attention to detail. I would charge this price no matter what the cabinet is (wood wise or high - end) ,If I told them , well I have to charge more for these because if something goes wrong- meaning -if it gets dropped- I have to cover that- as a customer listening to this first thing is he isn't to confident all of a sudden. the confidence is my price - I don't treat those high-end cabinets any different than lower end cabinets and I'm not questioning my abilities, If I was the customer , I would think that the contractor is intimidated and not confident and that additional price is due to the lack of it- no way~ Frankly if someone came to me with a price of $250.00 and then realized what he/she would be hanging and came back with an inflated price I would show them to the door pretty fast- see yaa! that is why I have insurance- and have never had to use it-and lets hope it stay that way- life is not perfect, and neither are we. Whatever you do - the minute they start haggling - let them find someone else.
My hourly price is broken down into sections ,many,many sections,for different types of work I do - you may want to do an Excel spread sheet to organize your categories/job costs/hours worked this will give you an hourly rate to go by -you have to ask yourself what you would like to make per year and then analyze that downward, with all expenditures included- down to the penny nails ~ little pun on words- that's what I did - you have to keep a record otherwise it's like looking at everyone else at what they are charging and your just fallowing the sheep - you'll get prices all over the place, some that need to see the job, again that depends on what your doing, I am referring to the wall cabinets in this case. with this you could have a standard price and give them a verbal price- and then finalize that with the inspections- they may not be telling you everything, or don't know about this process, then if there are any changes - revise at that point then give them the final price on the contract. I don't fallow what everyone else is asking - I don't even ask what the others charge - why- do they live their life the same way you live yours- do they have a ton of overhead/ while you may not or vise versa - all situations are not equal behind that price when an estimate is submitted from different contractors even though the jobs are the same- why the prices may vary so much is the responsibilities involved behind the contractors liabilities.
My 2-cents
Brian

[Brandon Shew]

Installation is a percentage of overall cost of the product. Adjustments can be made for remodels,type of product, finished product,etc.

The borg doesn't do it on a % basis.

I had the borg do my last kitchen cabinets. I paid approx $9K for the cabinets and $2K for the installation (I had taken down the old ones so all they had to do was put up the new ones.) The borg uses a "points" system to determine the labor. Each piece has a certain point value based on what it is (upper, lower, corner, crown mold., etc..). I could have bought their cheapest set of cabinets for $7K, and the labor would have been same either way for the configuration.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It's been my experience that the are more than a few different types of people who will try to squeeze a tradesman and all of them for different reasons.

I'd advise staying away from all of 'em.

[Ken Belisle]

A few months ago, the son of a friend bought some cabinets from Lowes for his condo.......2 lower & 5 upper, for around $3,000.00. (yeah, I know) They then wanted $5,500 to install those 5 cabinets......no counter; no plumbing, no electrical, no sink, no dishwasher, no nothing but the 5 cabinets.

I asked a friend who does kitchens if he would install someone else's cabinets as a favor to me and he agreed. He did it for $3,500 including the plumbing, electrical, sink, dishwasher, etc. and couldn't believe me when I told him what Lowes wanted for just the cabinets.

What I later heard was that Lowes subs out all their installations and takes an amount equal to what the sub charges just to put their name on the contract. So, if the sub charges $2,500, Lowes will add $2,500. I guess there's no way to prove this unless you knew the sub and could find out what his quote was.