Proper painted finish for cabinets

[Dale Todd]

Thanks for the advice on the cherry table Jim, here is another one. I am painting my new island to offset my natural cherry cabinets, and I am not set up to spray. Any advice on a brush-on painted finish?

[Peter Quinn]

Have the same question Todd. Am set up to spray but too cold for waterborne in my cave right now. Need to brush bathroom linen closet frames and doors.

Following an old thread on woodweb...several pros suggested Benjimin Moore Impervo cut with XIM latex extender. Just brushed out a sample (200th sample so far I think). Local paint pro told me Impervo is more like a pigmented waterborne poly than a paint. Having trouble with ropey brush lines. Any ideas?

[Peter Elliott]

Hi,

I just finished a customers kitchen. It had to be painted (not my fav.) white! 2 tones of it.

I used SW Pro Acrylic Waterborne. I have to say it is OK- to good at best as far as protection. Thinned with water 10%

I sprayed it using HVLP gun for latex. We know that is not the best route but it's the only guns I have.

I also bought SW Pro Block (i think that's it) primer. By far the BEST primer I ever shot. Anyting painted in the shop with get this. Sandable and very tough! Thinned with water 5%

If I were to paint again, I would go to Jeff at homesteadfinishing.com
He carries 2 products that can be tinted, meaning like paint products. That will give you more protection over time.

Cost is about the same.

Side note. My paint was in the garage and somewhat cold. I used hot filtered water to thinned and I have to say that it laid nicer than cold water. I know that sounds odd but I think the "warm" paint worked better?

Good luck
Peter

[Terry Pullen]

Purchase good brushes, buy your paint from a real paint store. Look for a local store thats been around awhile. There are different kinds of paints and different kinds of painters. Look for a store that sells to quality interior painters. Use the same paint, brushes and techniques an interior painter would on high quality trim work. If your not familiar with oil paint get acquainted, you'll love it.

1 - Sand it smooth, fill all dings, sand some more, wipe with tack rag.
2 - Brush on a good (high build, fast dry, pigmented) oil based primer, let dry.
3 - Do your prep again followed with two coats of oil based color coat.

Before cabinets were mass produced they were all painted this way. Modern cabinet shops use spray equipment and 2 part paints. The spray gives them a smooth surface and the 2 part paints wear like iron. You might find a paint shop that will you sell 2 part lacquers. You can try them but its a lot of hassle and expense (about two to three times the price) compaired to traditional lacquers and I don't think the extra durability is required.

I know painters that brush everything and others that swear by airless sprayers, while cabinet makers use HVLP equipment. A lot depends on the look you want. Many of my customers prefer a brushed finish because it doesn't look mass produced, it looks hand made and my case they are paying for hand made cabinets.

If you already have a compressor Harbor freight sells a conversion gun for about $25 that will apply thinned oil base suitable for cabinet interiors. Beware of over spray and fumes. With this gun you could spray the case and brush the doors for a clean look.

If you already have an airless sprayer use a fine tip and oil based semi gloss, mask off everything and go to town. The finish is not as good as HVLP but is still very good.

Last but most important... PRACTICE FIRST!!! And practice a lot. None of these techniques are easy they all require skill and proficiancy to do well. Good luck.

[Jay Jolliffe]

What Terry said is right on. I painted houses & did mostly interiors. I like oil base finishes because there a harder finish & by adding penatrol it helps the oil base paint to flatten out with no or very few brush marks. This also takes a little know how. If you add to much the paint will sag & run. So I start with just a little of the additive and keep adding to I get it to where it brushes out. I painted a bunch of doors using this additive & it was hard to tell they were brushed out. No one believed me they were hand done. That won't happen right away for you. I had over 25 years of painting..... Also they make a product for latex paint called Floatrol...I think their made by the Flood co.

[Jason Roehl]

I won't start an oil vs. waterborne debate here, but IMHO, today's WB paints are better than oil in many ways, but many old-timers don't like them because they've never learned how to use them.

1. WB paints are not like oil with long open times. This means you can't be piddling around when you put them on and you can't keep "working" the paint once you do. Get it on, spread it out, tip it off, leave it alone. It takes some practice and skill, but that comes with all painting.
2. You mostly have to push the limits with WB paint--because of the short open times, it doesn't have 24 hours to level like oil does, so you have to put on thicker coats for it to self-level. Only with certain paints do I ever thin for brushing, and I don't mess with Floetrol, I don't like it. The ONLY time I use it is if I have to pre-paint a trim package by hand in a hot garage or something like that. I'll do my darnedest to get a climate-controlled area before I reach for the Floetrol.
3. Cheap will cost you more. Your time is worth something, generally much more than a few bucks for paint. So, don't buy cheap paint if you want a beautiful, durable finish. You'll just pull your hair out. $30-50 per gallon is generally a good range for high-quality WB enamels/trim paints. The same is true for brushes. If I'm going for a very smooth finish, you have to look for a balance in the brush between softness of the bristles for tipping off, and stiffness to handle a high-solids paint (high-quality WB enamels tend to be). I like 100% nylon for this, though I will also use a nylon/polyester blend brush. I prefer chisel-tipped brushes over flagged.

And, for my cheap dig on oil paints: they will yellow noticeably over time. The higher-quality WB paints will not.

[Jeff Wright]

I won't start an oil vs. waterborne debate here, but IMHO, today's WB paints are better than oil in many ways, but many old-timers don't like them because they've never learned how to use them.

Jason, I will be painting my new kitchen cabinets later this year. Can you suggest some brand name paints and specific mixes in each for the water based paints? Maybe a Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams?

[Chris Padilla]

Jason is the man when it comes to painting and I suspect Phil Phelps (another "the man") will be in here in time but let me relay my NON-PROFESSIONAL, LIMITED EXPERIENCE, DIY, I THINK I KNOW EVERYTHING opinion on paints and painting.

I have a hard time getting close to the $30/gal paint and Benjamin Moore is up there in the $50/gal area. Quite a bit of money when you need 4 gallons and well, the wife and I just can't stomach those prices. She shops for paint by color alone and could care less about quality so it is Home Depot and our local hardware store for paint for us. This puts us in brands like Behr, Ralph Lauren, Glidden, Martha Stewart, and Dutch Boy and all those you'll find in the $18-30/gal range.

I've painted MOSTLY walls and ceilings (all interior jobs) but have done a dresser or two so keep that in mind as well. For these "lower quality paints*", I have found the use of Floetrol to significantly improve my painting abilities. It extends the drying time and allows the paint to flow more smoothly and I add it to EVERY can of paint I can. I LOVE this stuff, I really, really do.

I do firmly believe that spending $10 - $20 on a good brush is well worth it to further improve your painting. Again, Home Depot and my local hardware store is where I go and they both carry Purdy brands of brushes and so I've got a decent collection of these brushes and they've all held up well through many painting episodes at the house. This also goes for roller covers...spend some money on the good ones.

For spraying, I've had good luck with Crystalac brand. It is a waterbourne paint. Many folks here like the Target Coating finishes as well. I've also sprayed latex with great success, again, using Floetrol. Did I mention my love for Floetrol? I happen to have a somewhat pricey Apollo 1000 4 stage turbine HVLP sprayer so maybe that helps me spray latex well...I dunno. That is my story, I'm sticking to it (Mr. Phelps! )

Anyway, there ya go from a guy from a guy who constantly pesters Jason in PMs on advice in painting.... Thankfully, he answers me back!

* - I dunno what some of the pros think of Consumers Reports but they put Behr up pretty high on their list in a recent issue

[Jason Roehl]

Chris, I hardly consider what, 2-3 PMs?, as "pestering". I also won't go into what I think about CR's reviews of paints/stains/other coatings here, as my experience is different from their results (I just think they leave out a few important factors). I have no real experience with Behr products (I may have used them a couple times when homeowners bought the paints from the orange Borg, but don't recall much about them so they must not have been too bad).

In what I've used, if you want the look and performance of an oil product in a waterborne vehicle, Sherwin-Williams' WB Pro-Classic is where it's at, IMO. One minor drawback is that it is not available in an ultra-deep base (blacks and other dark, rich colors), something I wouldn't have known until Jim Becker here mentioned he tried to get some so I asked my local store manager about it. Another slight downside is that the range between too little (poor leveling and brushmarks) and too much (sags and runs) is narrower than many waterborne products that tend to be pretty forgiving.

The good side is that I have sanded out runs (like you can with an oil, no "balling" or "pilling"), but with only a couple hours of dry time, you just can't get it hot when sanding. It cures very hard, and I once painted a half-wall cap with it in gloss that had people pulling their hands back when they were about to touch it because they thought it was still wet.

(BTW, if Phil chimes in, I'm sure he'll extol the virtues of oil, that old-timer... )

[Chris Padilla]

Don't worry, Jason, I'll quickly ratchet it up to "pestering" mode PDQ! haha

One other thing in regard to $$/gal, I'm betting the pros get much better prices than us DIYers....

[George Octon]

Just finished a kitchen cabinet project and if a customer suggested doing it in the future; I think I'd have to discourage him and suggest buying new ones... But... these were oak so that's an issue and the project was as disorganized as it could be.
I was pleased with the SW Pro Classic oil semi though. I'm a little out of touch as I mostly paint boats now. Wouldn't dream of using latex. And since when is "Impervo" latex? Ben Moore's Satin Impervo oil was an industry standard for years, good and also easy to use. The SW I used was thick (helped in filling grain) and flowed out well. Dried slow.
The biggest plus in spraying would be the doors cause you can't really spray the bases (frames) anyway at least if they are in place. Being able to speed up the dry times while spraying the doors and getting a few coats on in a day would be very helpful. It's easier to spary and hand paint when laying flat so you need to get them dry before turning.
Anyway: SW Pro Classic oil or Ben Moore satin oil by me. Latex is too hard to get a good finish and on a cabinet you do want a good finish

[Jim Becker]

Chris, the other issue with most of the paints you mention is that they are designed for walls and ceilings, not cabinets. Latex paint really bites for painting cabinetry and shelving. It's too soft. It exhibits "blocking" (Stickyness) nearly forever. The 100% acrylic products like the BM Impervo and the SW Pro Classic that Jason and others mention are better suited for the job and that's what I'd use if I have to brush on the finish. Otherwise, I'll go the route of getting USL or a similar product tinted and spray it. That's an even finer finish for cabinets and shelving as it sprays beautifully and gives a nice finish with a thinner coat than the brushing method. IMHO, of course...

I will not even tell you what the BM totally washable flat paint is going to cost for use in our addition on the walls, but it will not likely require re-painting for a LONG time. Same with the SW Duration that's being used outside on all the places not covered with the Hardie siding...including my shop. But the latter is also warranted for longer than I'll likely be alive! LOL

[Phil Phelps]

I have made myself a brush from pipe cleaners. It's simple, really. Drill small holes in a 2x4 and stuff in about thirty. Using only a cheap alkyd paint from Shorties Surplus, I dip half the cleaners in the paint and swirl it on the wall. At first you can't appreciate the art, but on beer 11, it starts to come together.
Really, now, Jason. Cut the old stuff. I simply can't change after 60 years. I noticed you don't like Floetrol. I'm not a real fan of it, but after all the whining I've done over using it as a thinner, I picked up a bottle the other day and, guess what? It's now recommended as a reducer. They must have changed the formula, because it was called an extender and didn't work very well in a siphon or HVLP gun. I bet it works as a cattle wormer, too. The truth is, Jason has probably painted more sq.ft. that I have and knows a variety of products that work best for him. I'll bet he thins his product based on feel. But for the life of me, I can't use water base paint on wood trim. But we do agree on several things, and one is good material and tools. And just a note here on cabinets, shutters, and the like, I have super success with a fine finish tip, with alkyd paint, through an airless. Paint and advise from the real paint store, folks. But, ask for an older guy, he'll know best

[Jason Roehl]

Phil, you'd really like one of our recent additions to our sprayer stable. It's an airless (Graco 395) with a compressor on board for air assist. The gun has a special nozzle, so it works like a regular airless (with the standard RAC X tips), but you can turn on the air for some additional atomization. Very cool. I had seen the opposite before--an HVLP with a small diaphragm pump to push the fluid, but this beast (it is pretty heavy) worked wonders on a trim package we did last year (with WB ProClassic of course).

I'll have to try the 2x4/pipe cleaners technique...maybe I can get on HGTV with it.

I swear I won't say anymore about dogs, tricks and hunting, Phil.

[Dale Todd]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies about painting kitchen cabinets. Unfortunately, I think oil is out for me as I am trying to keep the toxic vapors down. The BM guy suggested their new Aura paint for the cabs as an alternative the their Impervo Oil paint - the Impervo 100% Acrylic can't be tinted as dark as I need (almost black). Has anyone tried the Aura on cabinets yet?

Thanks in advance,

Dale Todd