Titebond - Liquid Hide Glue

[Mark Berenbrok]

I got my hide glue from Bjorn Industries in Charlotte NC about 12 years ago and am still using it. I use it for joints but not panel construction. The guy at Bjorn offered a wealth of information on the phone and provided alot of written info. A little urea added to the mix extends the glue up time. Using it isn't difficult as long as you have your ducks lined up and have done a dry assembly. You can use one of those small water heaters (the kind for boiling a cup of water at the office) and a mason jar for a glue pot.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Why not cliff?? Other posters seemd to have good results with it.

Thanks,
Terry

Well if you want a glue in a bottle get a modern one as they don't have to be damaged by processes and additives to boost shelf life.
Hyde glue is wonderful stuff if you mix it right from the best materials and don't mistrreat it by trying to keep it open too ling ot thin it too much etc.

That said I went on a pilgramage a long one to learn all I could about hyde glue. It's great stuff - if - if a lot of things.

A fair bit of really nice furniture has lasted three hundred years made with the stuff. However a vastly huge lot of the furniture made with it didn't last long at all.

So even under the best of circumstances it can be finiky.

I am unsure what a person would want hyder for unless it's either vineeer or glue blocks. In those apps it is somewhat better than most other glues but not the crap in the bottle please. They messed with it to boost shelf life and didn't do a good job.

If they made it like they make epoxy - building it from the molecule up it'd be a different thing altogether cause they'd have the opportunity to have engineered it from the ground up to have shelf life AND work correctly. On the other hand bottled hyde is a natural product the molecular structure of which you can't just shove a swizzle stick in stir some chemicals in and and expect to soup it up somehow AND get good results.

I submit that the people who are using bottled hyse and are happy with it have not had the opportunity to have compared it to well mage glue from flake and especially haven't had the chance to compare long term performance.

Of course it's a big world and there has just got to be someone who will say I'm wrong.
Whether they are right - - - - - -

[Dan Forman]

Cliff---Not to be argumentative, just searching for truth. Do you have any objective data to confirm your beliefs about the liquid hide glue? I find it rather attractive, but if you can show me any real world examples of why I should avoid it, I would be glad to know. By that I mean that a lot of times new things which take the mystery out of certain time tested techniques are looked upon with great skepticism by those who were brought up with the traditional way of doing things, whether or not there is any actual basis in fact for their concern. If you have such facts, please share them with us.

My understanding is that the liquid glues remove a lot of the "if's" you mentioned, providing on the whole a more consistent product. The Wood Magazine article actually found it to be much stronger than that which they mixed up for the test.

I will contribute my own bit of "scientific" analysis. The results of yesterdays test of Titebond liquid hide glue that was 3 years past expiration date were rather disappointing. I glued two pieces of scrap oak together, placed in a vise with moderate pressure for about an hour, allowed to cure 24 hours. My plan was to put them in the vise, and begin whacking with ever increasing force with a hammer until they seperated. They were two triangles, put together off axis, so that the points were not lined up, so that whacking the eposed point on the outside piece would seperate them if sufficient force were applied laterally.

Well, they seperated at the very first rather gentle whack, more of a nudge really. I will repeat the test with same pieces using fresher glue, and post that result. I don't know how old the newer bottle is, it doesn't have an expiration date, so maybe a brand new bottle is in order.

Dan

[Eddie Darby]

Hide glue from a bottle or from flakes is more than enough, when it comes to gluing wood, since the weakest link is the wood. Where you do find failures is when you have a joint that isn't perfect wood to wood contact, since hide glue has no gap fixing ability. This perfect wood to wood contact means that more time must be spent on seeing that the joints are perfect. Newer modern glues will exhibit some gap filling ability usually.

This web-page has instructions for use, plus a glue comparison chart, as well as another source to buy hide glue.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,110,42965

To get the charts click on the blue "Tech".
To get the instructions click on the blue "Instr".

[Tom Francis]

What about liquid hide glue in the bottle for "rubbed joints?" I really like the idea of not having to load up a bunch of clamps, especially for gluing up a panel. I glued up a top for a cabinet several years ago (30+) and it's still fine today.

I'm sure that the hot glue would be better based on the comments I've read on this thread, but does anybody else have experience with the Titebond in the bottle using it on "rubbed" joints?

[J. Z. Guest]

I've read that hide glue doesn't hold up over time like modern glues. It's hard to tell though, since "over time" can mean 100 years, and we haven't had yellow glue or poly glue for that long. The main advantage listed in books is that joints can be repaired by heating them up.

I'd use polyurethane glue for things I want to last forever. I like it because it has just a bit of give in the joint rather than being super hard/brittle like yellow glues.

[Brandon Shew]

I've read that hide glue doesn't hold up over time like modern glues. It's hard to tell though, since "over time" can mean 100 years, and we haven't had yellow glue or poly glue for that long. The main advantage listed in books is that joints can be repaired by heating them up.

I've been looking into hide glues as well for the last factor that you mention - the ability to repair them. I'm wondering though if the liquid hide glues can be heated for repairs or not.

I'd use polyurethane glue for things I want to last forever. I like it because it has just a bit of give in the joint rather than being super hard/brittle like yellow glues.

Even polyurethane glues haven't been tested for the "over time" factor that you describe above. If you're making true heirloom quality furniture, I'd think that the ability to repair a joint 100 years down the line would be a plus. I'm somewhat averse to the poly glues solely on the basis of the mess that they make.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Nooooooooooooo! not the bottled stuff for a heirloom project. Use epoxy or the real stuff.

I was trying real hard to convince myself that the only glue worth using was hide. I worked at it for nearly a year and in the end I decided that:
1.) plain old titebond is like the best glue on the planet for most applications
2.) If I think I'll want to repair the joint later then epoxy is next best
but
3.) If I want absolutely waterproof and heat resistant then I'll use resourcinol (it's a PITA to work with).
And
4.) The only uses I have to hide are veneer ('cause it
doesn't bleed through and instrument fret-boards ('cause the glue softens easily with a little heat).

[Curt Harms]

I've been looking into hide glues as well for the last factor that you mention - the ability to repair them. I'm wondering though if the liquid hide glues can be heated for repairs or not.

I haven't tried heating but wetting the joint loosens it just fine.

Even polyurethane glues haven't been tested for the "over time" factor that you describe above. If you're making true heirloom quality furniture, I'd think that the ability to repair a joint 100 years down the line would be a plus. I'm somewhat averse to the poly glues solely on the basis of the mess that they make.

Bob Smalser did a writeup about reversibility and repairability a while back. I don't expect to see him in any titebond ads anytime soon

[Eddie Darby]

I've read that hide glue doesn't hold up over time like modern glues. It's hard to tell though, since "over time" can mean 100 years, and we haven't had yellow glue or poly glue for that long. The main advantage listed in books is that joints can be repaired by heating them up.

I'd use polyurethane glue for things I want to last forever. I like it because it has just a bit of give in the joint rather than being super hard/brittle like yellow glues.

They have pulled out of ancient Egyptian tombs wooden objects that were glued together with hide glue, so I would think that they have a weee bit of a head start over modern adhesives when it comes to a proven track record.

Most museums have musical instruments that are centuries old that were made with hide glue.

[Jeff Bratt]

In tests performed by FWW magazine recently (Aug 2007) the hot and liquid hide glues had almost identical rankings. While the PVA glues and epoxy were stronger, hide glues still produced joints that were generally stronger than the wood. "Old Brown Glue" was the liquid hide glue that was tested.

Benefits of hide glue (hot or cold):
reversible - heat or water can be used to disassemble joints
stainable - squeeze-out not as much of a problem
repairable - glue will adhere to itself, can be used to repair joints in older furniture, made in the pre-PVA era (before ~1940) when almost all wood glue was hide glue
better creep resistance than PVA glues

Concerns about hide glue:
not water or heat resistant
longer clamp time (for liquid/cold type)
shorter shelf life (for liquid/cold type)

Comments about other posts in this thread:
- PVA glues and hide glues can all be used to make "rub joints"
- The "gram strength" ratings of the glue flakes does NOT have anything to do with the strength of the glue joints.
- PVA glues are not "super hard or brittle" - they are more resistant to shock and less resistant to creep than other glues.

[Jeff Wright]

The April '08 issue #197 of FWW features an article on using hyde glues.

[Eric Gustafson]

Is it hide glue or hyde glue???

[mike holden]

Eric,
as to "hide" or "hyde" that depends, both are acceptable. In the 1800's spelling was not a rigid as it is today (or not - texting, acronyms, etc.). Ever see a copy of the Declaration of Independence? Who was it said that "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" (grin) In any case, both spellings were used in historical writing, so take your pick.
Mike

[Dan O'Sullivan]

Terry
You haven't look far enough. Check out Old Brown glue from Pat Edwards. This is freshly made hide glue with just the right amount of urea in it to make it set up SLOWLY. I use it a bunch. To make the viscosity thinner, I put it in a double boiler and spread it in a thin layer. Truthfully, I just finished hammer veneering a surface 14" wide and 36" long with Old brown glue. I am amazed how well it tacks. Not one bubble. If I have a loose spot I use my clothes iron and reactivate the glue and most times I just put a pad and clamp it to bring the bubble down. Amazing.

I love hot hide(192grm) with a little urea in it for just about everything I glue up. The stuff is great. Don't be fooled by all this rocket science about glue. Its not complicated after you play with it a little.

dan