"Regarding the rockers, David, suppose you had two rockers that were exactly the same, but one had Maloof's signature on it. The signed one would be quite a bit more expensive. But does it function any differently? No, it doesn't."
That's totally true Mike. But factory made Japanese chisels are a far cry from their hand forged "artisan" counterparts. So it is impossible to make an "apples to apples" comparison. It's not "the same" because the tools are not of the same quality. If they were that would shed a totally different light on it. If all you were paying for was the name, you would have a valid point. This does occur with Japanese tools. I have a plane that many agree is one of the "best" ever made. But it's maker does not have the most prestigious name so his work cannot command the higher prices they might bring if he did. Comparing the maker of my plane with the maker who gets a higher price simply by virtue of the name... well in that case your argument would be unquestionable. But to compare these maker's work to that produced by the equivalent of an automated stamp mill? Not really a fair comparison. As one who has used both the best and the worst of Japanese hand tools, I can say unequivocally that there is an enormous difference.
David DeCristoforo
Although you guys have been beating this to death and I have no chisel to grind in this ( I have the AI chisels) I do want to take issue with one thing. To make a judgement about Japanese chisels based on the Grizzly product seems to me to be the same as deciding that Bailey planes don't work because of a bad experience with a brand new Stanley or Anant -- hardly the same as a prewar model. Laminated blades have been used in planes (by Stanley no less) and may have the advantages that are claimed for them. It seems to me that I would rather sharpen a small amount of hard steel supported by a lot of softer steel, not to mention the issues of protecting that harder steel from shock. For planes Steve Knight has been selling a laminated blade for his planes -- at double the price of the normal iron. There are some good things that may not be common here in the West because they don't lend themselves to mass production. We can all learn from what other cultures have developed in their traditions. After this discussion I'm tempted to buy a Japanese chisel to see what all the fuss is about -- $50 is not that pricey.
i enjoyed this discussion, it was civil, thanks dan
Since this appears to be aimed at me, I'll respond.
I agree that we have beat this subject to death.
Throughout this discussion I made a point of not making generalized statements about whether Japanese chisles were good or bad. I pointed out my experience with three brands of chisesl, one of which was the Grizzly.
I think I even commented that a Japanese chisel with the right combination of hardness and toughness could do essentially anything a western chisel could do. It is wrong (incorrect) to accuse me of making judgements of all Japanese chisels based on my experience with Grizzly chisels.
I would encourage you to purchase a Japanese chisel (or several) and try them out. All woodworkers should try them at one point in their career, just to be well rounded.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
It wasn't intended as anything aimed at anyone. I'm just assuming that in Japanese chisels there is a LN and Borg version of the tool. In the end it all makes me think of my son's violin teacher who when a student complained about their instrument would pick up the fiddle in question and make it sing with the comment "seems ok to me".
I think we have discussed this to a reasonable point (though personally I really did not think it qualified as a dead horse...)
I jsut want to add that although most of my comments were directed at Mike H, I certainly didn't feel that our conversation was fruitless or argumentative. If others did feel so, they're free. FWIW I actually agree with the majority of what Mike has said, and hope I made that clear.
One good thing came from this for me - it looks like I may have a chance to get a look at those Imai chisels sooner rather than later...
Pax,
raney
I'd like to thank Mike for helping to spark this interesting conversation and arguing civilly even though no one else spoke up to fight on the western side ().
I agree with Joel, I'm tempted to try out Japanese chisels at some point also. Are there any smaller sets (4 or 6) at a similar price point that people would recommend? I suppose I could get them individually, but I was thinking about a future birthday .
One last thing -- I looked for "Imai" chisels on the Hida website and I didn't find it. Where are they? Thanks to everyone for a lively discussion!
Well, if I haven't been more explicit about this before, if you're interested in trying out a Japanese chisel, I heartily recommend the Imai chisels for anyone, beginner or advanced. Don't worry about buying a set -- just get the sizes that you want. In fact, Hida Tool sells a set of 10 that actually goes for more than the individual chisels, because it comes with a handmade wooden box that houses the chisels.
Hida Tool is using a weird menu system these days, so you can't really link directly to an internal page. But if you click on Woodworking --> Chisels --> Fujihiro Brand Chisel, you'll get to the bench chisels made by Imai. There are other types of chisels made by Imai sold under the Fujihiro brand, including mortise chisels, timber chisels, which are closer in size to western bench chisels, paring chisels (called slick chisel), gooseneck chisels, gouges, and some other really specialized chisels.
I would just like to second Wilbur's advice to Peter in regard to Imai-san's chisels. They're very good tools and also good value, given what traditionally-made Japanese chisels cost. They are not to be confused with a beginners tool that you need to plan on trading up from. I know at least two advanced practitioners--more advanced than myself--who use them every day and have for years.
I would also like to thank Wilbur for his exceptional post--exceptional because it is 100% data and experience. And thanks to all for a very civilized discussion.
Wiley
The horse is way dead, but there still is something about this that doesn't make sense.
Maybe I'm being dense, but I'll ask again, since I think I missed the answer: due to this issue of the cost of skilled labor vs. machine made tools, are you saying that in a "fair" comparison between a Japanese chisel and a western chisel, the Japanese chisel has to cost less than the western chisel? In other words, I shouldn't compare an Imai chisel with a Lie-Nielsen, since they both cost about $50; instead I should pick a Japanese chisel that sells for, say, $25-30 for the comparison?
I have to believe that your answer is going to be "no", since no other tool comparison I have ever seen compares price only in terms of the cost of manufacturing separate from the other costs of running that business, which leads to my second point of confusion. I'm going to use Imai and Lie-Nielsen chisels as an example, mainly because they do cost the same. By your reasoning, less of the price of the Lie-Nielsen chisel goes to the cost of manufacturing since they use modern methods of manufacture. Wouldn't it be logical, then, to pick the Imai chisel over the Lie-Nielsen since more of your tool budget dollar goes to the actual cost of the tool itself?
If your answer to my first question is "yes", well, I honestly have no idea how to respond to that proposition, other than to say that it's a really unique way of looking at tool comparisons.
I only have western chisels. They all seem to do a good job to a varying degree.
I stayed out because not only was Mike doing a good job at being clear on his observations, I have not had any use of japanese chisels to add to the discussion.
My 2¢, I have not paid more than $20 for many of my chisels. Sure, there have been a few less than great chisels in some of those deals. But most of them have become great users.
A new chisel is a great thing, but I sure like the idea of some of my chisels only passing through my life as part of their centuries long journey of woodworking for many a wood artist.
jim