Fire Regulations Costing Me Thousands

[Matt Ocel]

Well, people could not live places that burn to the ground on a regular basis. Or not complain about it, at least. The original poster seems to live in San Diego, which is one of the places where there are going to be regular brush fires. Since people seem to think they can live there, and expect fire protection, it's not unreasonable to make them bear the cost of that.

That makes it even more absurd.

If the masses needed fire supression simultainiously, ironically no one would have fire supression.

[Don Bullock]

Well, people could not live places that burn to the ground on a regular basis. Or not complain about it, at least. The original poster seems to live in San Diego, which is one of the places where there are going to be regular brush fires. Since people seem to think they can live there, and expect fire protection, it's not unreasonable to make them bear the cost of that.

David,
First of all the area I'm moving to isn't considered by my insurance company to be a "high fire risk" area. Yes, a brush fire went through part of the community last year, but that's the first fire like that in the area for many years. It was mostly concentrated in areas with a lot of trees and fanned by some unusual high winds for this area.

Second, neither the cement board nor the interior fire sprinklers will protect the structure from a brush fire. Even homes made from concrete and steel didn't survive the fires. So a thin layer of cement board isn't going to stop the fire. Since brush fires attack a home from the exterior a structure is "fully involved" before the interior sprinklers are activated. Even the copper pipes wouldn't withstand the intense heat.

I didn't add an additional requirement that all glass has to be tempered glass. My estimates for the windows didn't include the cost on windows with non-tempered glass so I don't know how much this added to the cost.

What has happened in the community is that politicians wanted people to think that they were "solving" the brush fire "problem" by enacting these new regulations and requirements. According to the studies done after the fire the "biggest problem" was a lack of coordination of inadequate fire fighting equipment that was grossly outdated. Since the fires the state of California has finally stepped in and coordinated the firefighting efforts in Southern California and provided more equipment that is up to date. They are also "staging" equipment and firefighters so that they can react quicker when a fire erupts.

[Lee Koepke]

David,
First of all the area I'm moving to isn't considered by my insurance company to be a "high fire risk" area. Yes, a brush fire went through part of the community last year, but that's the first fire like that in the area for many years. It was mostly concentrated in areas with a lot of trees and fanned by some unusual high winds for this area.

Second, neither the cement board nor the interior fire sprinklers will protect the structure from a brush fire. Even homes made from concrete and steel didn't survive the fires. So a thin layer of cement board isn't going to stop the fire. Since brush fires attack a home from the exterior a structure is "fully involved" before the interior sprinklers are activated. Even the copper pipes wouldn't withstand the intense heat.

I didn't add an additional requirement that all glass has to be tempered glass. My estimates for the windows didn't include the cost on windows with non-tempered glass so I don't know how much this added to the cost.

What has happened in the community is that politicians wanted people to think that they were "solving" the brush fire "problem" by enacting these new regulations and requirements. According to the studies done after the fire the "biggest problem" was a lack of coordination of inadequate fire fighting equipment that was grossly outdated. Since the fires the state of California has finally stepped in and coordinated the firefighting efforts in Southern California and provided more equipment that is up to date. They are also "staging" equipment and firefighters so that they can react quicker when a fire erupts.

unfortunately knee jerk reactions tend to be the norm with the politicians. I went thru that after hurricane andrew in 91. the ultimate result of the majority of the damage was a result of shoddy workmanship and or outright negligence. The general theory was if we increased the codes that would solve the problems. Education, better inspection processes, and stopping the corruption would have been the correct course, but then politicians would have to admit the fact that they werent doing their jobs very well ..

[david scheidt]

The purpose of fire resistant exteriors -- which is what the cement board, tempered glass, and (you didn't mention them, but I bet they exist) roofing requirements are -- is not to keep the structure from burning down if it's exposed to the direct force of a wildfire, but to keep them from burning as a result of flying embers and the like. It takes very little to set a wooden sided (or, worse, shingled) building on fire. Fire resistant structures mean that when the next fire happens (and it will, within the expected life of your shop) scarce fire fighting resources can be focused on fighting the main fire, and not protecting structures that aren't directly threatened. Brush clearing requirements have the same intent.

[Don Bullock]

David,
You are correct that the cement board and tempered glass may protect the structure from flying embers.

[Steven Hardy]

Insurance is government sanctioned gambling.
Insurance companies run the country now.

[Dennis Lopeman]

You guys could move to KY - God lives here and "Big Brother" doesn't bother us much!! I have visited San Diego, and while you guys have a neat state out there, I'm pretty happy just visiting every now and then.

And Jim, how come the Amish get by without all that stuff?????

Thats what I was going to suggest... Just move! Don't know about KY... but GA is pretty cool...

[Dennis Lopeman]

OH yeah - look into this stuff - papercrete

If your a big DIY-er

http://www.livinginpaper.com/mixes.htm

Doesn't burn and great R value... Might take a little longer to make your shop though.

[Joe Pelonio]

I always cringe when I hear about fire sprinkler requirements for homes in grassfire areas. Yes, if we all had them the number of house fires started in the kitchen would be reduced. Enough to justify the cost? I don't have that data, though if it's your house you'd be glad to have it when there's a fire in the house. Craig's suggestion for one in the kitchen makes sense, or even a suppression system over the stove with a rechargeable extinguisher as used in restaurants.

On the other hand, as Don said, it won't help with a grassfire or any other started outside. I worked at the local water utility during the Oakland Firestorm of 1991. One major issue was power lines burning, so there was no power to the pumping plants. Water in the local storage reservoirs (and hydrants) soon ran out. Any sprinkler systems would also have been useless.

They have since placed large generators at each pumping plant.

On sprinkler cost, there's one more issue. Most residential properties will have a 5/8" or 3/4" water service. In order to get enough water to meet the needs of a whole house sprinkler system, on a fairly large or multi story house, that would have to be upgraded. That probably means a new tap into the main, larger service lateral pipe and meter. Back then that could cost $15,000-20,000.

[Don Bullock]

...
On sprinkler cost, there's one more issue. Most residential properties will have a 5/8" or 3/4" water service. In order to get enough water to meet the needs of a whole house sprinkler system, on a fairly large or multi story house, that would have to be upgraded. That probably means a new tap into the main, larger service lateral pipe and meter. Back then that could cost $15,000-20,000.

Fortunately the water water service to my property is a full inch.

As an added comment, I did save some money because of the fire regulations. Since the garage/shop is less than 100 feet from the edge of the easement for the private road next to the property sky lights must be tempered glass. I just decided to remove them from the plans.

[Jim Becker]

On sprinkler cost, there's one more issue. Most residential properties will have a 5/8" or 3/4" water service. In order to get enough water to meet the needs of a whole house sprinkler system, on a fairly large or multi story house, that would have to be upgraded.

It's more interesting when one is not on "City Water". Our new sprinkler system in the addition is a "closed" system for that reason--we are on a well. 350 gallon tank plus a pump. So in addition to the cost of stuff for the sprinkler setup, there is the additional electrical, additional concrete to make the crawlspace slab thicker to support the tank weight and the structural changes to accommodate said tank and pump. And it doesn't work with the power off.

Thank goodness we didn't have to retrofit the rest of the house! not only would it have been an expensive pain, but it would have been unsightly given the solid 18"+ thick stone walls covered with plaster in the 250 year old portion of the original home.

[Chase Gregory]

In grassfire areas people should just be required to have thier irrigation system tied into thier heat/smoke detectors...and that of their adjacent neighbors...

Chaser

[Jim Andrew]

Seems like a steel frame building with steel roofing and siding would be a way around all these regulations, beings it is fire proof. Do you still have to have sprinklers for a steel building? Maybe they think it will melt if a grass fire comes along.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, steel buildings still need the fire repression systems...they still have a lot of non-metal stuff in them and once the fire gets hot enough, the metal can "burn", too.

[Don Bullock]

Local codes and "curb appeal" are reasons for me not going with a steel building. The way my home site is laid out the garage, shop is the first thing people see when they drive up to our house. If I could build the a separate shop building somewhere behind the house I might have been able to go with a steel building. As Jim said, it would still be required to have fire sprinklers. In the recent fires homes built with steel framing and steel sheds still burned to the ground. Building the shop in the back of my property would also have cost me thousands more than my present plan because it's on the opposite end of the property from the electrical and water service. Having the shop and garage together in one big building gives me more shop space because I can use part of the garage space for the shop when I need it.