Combination Machines

[Rob Russell]

Charlie,

I'm a Felder owner, with a big jointer/planer and saw/shaper, plus standalone mortiser and dust collector. The fit and finish of the machines is awesome.

It is definitely true that you can spend more on the Felder, partly because they offer a range of options that the MiniMax doesn't. The Felder's also go larger. For example, my jointer/planer is a 20", which is 4" larger than the largest MiniMax offers at 16". Do I really need a 20" j/p? Probably not. Was LOML gonna let me get away with "Gee honey, I bought this 12" or 16" j/p a few years ago, but it really isn't big enough so I want to upgrade ..."? No way. I had one shot to do this, so I basically went top of the line. That included a whole slew of options on the machines, like keypad driven raise and lower on the j/p table. Changeover from jointer to planer means pushing a few buttons and waiting for the table to raise to my set point while I lift up the jointer tables and then swing the dust hood over. The shaper has digital height setting, although the version I got isn't keypad entry.

The Felder machines can be broken down to fit through a 30" door. That may be important to you. I had to get my machines down into a basement. As proof of that, I offer the attached pictures (I'm the goofy-looking guy in the maroon t-shirt). Because your shop is in the garage, this is probably not an issue and I'd guess that if you ever move you'll go to a place with good access. Still, if the ability to get through tight spaces with the machines is important, the Felder has advantages.

Knapp is also a high-end brand priced similarly to the Felder, but I'd spend some serious time trying to locate some support resources before I committed to buying their equipment. The Knapp brand has apparently cycled through a few different owners over the past decade or 2. The Robland/Laguna brand - I won't bash them, but would also spend some serious time looking at available support.

Now - MiniMax. If I weren't going to buy a Felder, I'd buy a MM. To me, that's sort of like going from a Mercedes to an Audi. Either one is way better than a Chevy Cavalier. I would strongly recommend that you join the 2 Yahoo Groups: Felder Owners Group and MiniMax owners Group. The FOG and MOG are both extremely important in terms of after sale service for whichever machine you buy and getting the most out of your purchases. The FOG has been around for several years and there are some extremely talented folks who have made FOG-built accessories. The MOG is newer and has had a little more focus on the bandsaws, but that's because the MM bandsaws sell so well. I will admit that the FOG has a crowd of folks who are pretty anal about dialing their machines in accurately and keeping them that way. The FOG and MOG are on "friendly" terms and really don't go around bad-mouthing each others' machines. There are folks who post on both; at least a couple of FOG'rs have posted on the MOG with some of the ideas that they have developed over the years to make using a slider/combo better. One great tip I got from the FOG was buying a narrow fork pallet jack to move the machines around. The forks slide into a channel underneath the machines and it's way easier to move them that way than with the mobility kits.

As a summary, I'd go with either the MM or Felder. If you are looking for a "basic" combination machine, the MM will be less expensive. If you want convenience or performance features, the Felder offers far more customizability. Ordering a Felder combo, even a "semi-combo" j/p or saw/shaper is like ordering a car. Buying a pair of them costs like a car. DAMHIKT. Felder also offers a "commissioning" option, where a factory technician comes out and sets up/dials in your machine in your shop. that's probably the best value Felder offers, especially if you're not the kind of person who really likes to fuss with machinery - you just want it to work.

Good luck on your decision.

Rob

[Jim Becker]

Great pics, Rob, and excellent information. (And now I KNOW I need to visit on my next trip up your way...which if things work out will be in about two weeks...argh...argh...argh...)

[Paul B. Cresti]

Rob,
You are correct.As a MM owner I strongly back my machines, but I will whole heartily admitt Felder has a lot of extra refinements. They truly are "beautiful" machines. You can not go wrong with either brand. Good luck with your beasts!

[John Renzetti]

Rob, Great pics, that's the first time I think I've seen these. Glad you are taking care of what was supposed to be "my" AD751.
Getting back to what combo. I own a bunch of Felder machines. They are not cheap but you get what you pay for. One of the big factors besides the quality is that the machine can be configured any way you want. With all the options and accessories the machine can get built for exactly the way you work.
Best bet is to look at both machines again close up. Talk to owners in their shops. Then there is that intangible factor I call "the warm and fuzzy" feeling about a particular machine. About 7 years ago I got that for the Felder, which was the jointer/planer AD741. True is was a few thousand more than anything comparable but I just had to have it.
Have fun making your choice.
take care,
John

[Rob Russell]

One other comment I forgot to make about the FOG and MOG groups. They are "private", which means you have to register to even read the posts. Don't let that scare you away. Each group welcomes potential buyers, not because the FOG/MOG are sales oriented, but because the FOG/MOG owners like to share info about their machines. It's highly recommended that you read through posts in the forums before buying. That's especially true on the FOG, where the number of options available on the machines can be a bit daunting, and getting info about which options are worthwhile is valuable. You will see gripes about problems, too. Felder owners aren't shy about posting when they think they have a problem that should be rectified quickly. There is a generally a followup post about how the Felder service folks came through for them.

[Rob Russell]

Rob, Great pics, that's the first time I think I've seen these. Glad you are taking care of what was supposed to be "my" AD751.
John

JR,

Those pics are actually posted in my folder on the FOG. "Your" AD751P looks like it just left the factory!

The story here, folks, is that when I ordered the machine I was trying to get delivery before snowfall so I could get the machines into my basement before things got messy outside. John had a machine configured exactly the same as what I was ordering "on the boat" (literally). He let me take the earlier machine and he took "my" machine which came in a couple of months later. He was upgrading from a 16" to the 20" machine, so had a machine to use while waiting for the new one. As is usual, nothing happens quickly with custom stuff coming from overseas, so the machines didn't even arrive for delivery to me until January. You can see from my pix that there was snow on the ground by then - about 2 feet.

Rob

[Chris Padilla]

My goodness, Rob, how the heck did you ever get those beasts into your basement!? It looks a little like a snake swallowing a whole cow!

Any pics of your shop...a little tour, perhaps? How about an avatar?

[Rob Russell]

My goodness, Rob, how the heck did you ever get those beasts into your basement!? It looks a little like a snake swallowing a whole cow!

The simple answer is "gravity"!

In the second picture, if you look to the right of the jointer/planer, you can see a section of 2" square tube stock (1/4" thick walls). A pair of those run from the top of the hatchway landing down to the basement floor. They function as rails. I drilled holes in concrete with my trusty rotary hammer, inserted lead lag shields and 1/2" lag bolted cleats to the floor and a mounting board across the top of the hatchway.

In the first picture, you can see that the jointer/planer is mounted on a wooden sled. The flat 2x6's on the bottom of the sled slide down the rails. Also in the first picture, on the very far right you can see a yellow plastic "thing" and what looks like 2 wires. Those are part of a winch. To the right, off camera, a winch mounted on a piece of Unistrut was mounted on a sawhorse. I ran a series of those 2" tie down straps (the big ones truckers use to tie down loads on flatbed trailers) back to an 18" birch tree that's straight out from the hatchway. The purpose of the winch was to control the slide of the machines, down the rails into the basement. I used a come-a-long down in the basement to crank the machines down the stairs. Once the machines were over the 1/2-way tipped point, gravity did the rest. Let the winch out slowly and catch the machine on my pallet jack in the basement.

It sounds simple, but it did take a fair amount of prep. Total cost was about $250 in materials. The professional rigging estimate would have been at least $4K, partly because I had to do some disassembly of the machinery to fit through the door width.

[Frank Pellow]

Rob, I was impressed with the pictures of that big machine "sliding" into your basement. Now that I hear how you rigged everything up, I am even more impressed.

[Charlie Plesums]

Thanks to all for the input, especially the details from Felder users Markus Shaffer and Rob Russell. For anyone interested in the mid-point, here is an update on my search...

I joined both the Felder and MiniMax discussion groups a couple weeks ago, but haven't had time to read back into their archives very far.

My primary focus has been narrowed to MiniMax and Felder, in part because of the recommendations from this forum. The others haven't been ruled out, but have been moved to the b-list

The fact that MiniMax is local hasn't been lost on me. In fact, my rep lives a few blocks from me and has offered to drop over any time I have a question, including nights and weekends. How's that for "on site support?"

Felder is pretty frustrating. I talked to someone but "he didn't cover my area." Three tries later I talked to the person who does cover my area, asking for prices on a new machine, info on the used machine listed on their web site, and a contact where I could visit a machine locally (long story, but somehow I missed Felder at IWF). I have not gotten the catalog promised, nor prices, nor a contact for a visit. Not looking good for Felder support in our area, at least from the sales perspective! I would hate to make a decision this big based on poor sales support, but it may come to that.

The several people who have separate machines, and those who recommend how Felder can be split into two, also have me considering two combo machines. That would also allow me to get the saw/shaper now, and continue to use my cheap jointer, lunch box planer, and hollow chisel mortiser for the time being, perhaps reducing the sticker shock a little.

[Jim Becker]

The fact that MiniMax is local hasn't been lost on me. In fact, my rep lives a few blocks from me and has offered to drop over any time I have a question, including nights and weekends. How's that for "on site support?"

"Local" for CS at MM doesn't seem to matter. One two occasions I posted a question about an issue with a new machine on MOG and got a call within an hour or two...both times on a Saturday night...by someone who was not involved in my transactions (a Californian, too), but wanted to help out. Rob, the technician, has also walked me through an adjustment on the J/P late on a Saturday afternoon. The fact that you are local to them is icing on the cake.

BTW, who's the rep who is "almost your neighbor"?

[Chris Padilla]

Felder is pretty frustrating...Not looking good for Felder support in our area, at least from the sales perspective!

Charlie,

I'm not trying to bash Felder but I have a friend who ended up selling his Felder J/P due to poor CS. He just couldn't get the support he needed and ended up very frustrated. So that experience along with the vast price difference sent me towards MiniMax and come Monday morning, I'll have a 1/2 ton FS41 Elite (16" J/P) sitting in my driveway.

He also got tired of moving the table for the change-over from J to P and back again and ended up purchasing separate machines, too. I do not have the room for two large items like a jointer and planer and it will be nice having the two machines of the same width, too.

The slider/shaper combo would be a sweet, sweet machine. The sliders are something else. I've seen the MM and Felders and they are so nice. The only problem is that you need some serious space to effectively use them in. I have a sweet J/P now but if I ever move, the size of shop I can have will serious impact what I buy and a slider will be high on the list.

Good Luck to you...your location just screams dealing with MM. I've been working with Dain Kirkpatrick as my rep...again, a nice guy who responds quickly to email inquiries.

[Martin Shupe]

I took a class with Kelly Mehler this summer, and most of his big machines are Felder. He even went to Europe to tour the factory. He does have one old Oliver jointer, but the rest of the big stuff is Felder.

I have a MM bandsaw, which I am very happy with, but there were some things on the Felders that got my attention. Like being able to set the planer thickness to .005", for example. Don't worry about change over, it is a non event.

Long range, (like when I make wide-body Captain), I'll be looking for a 20 inch jointer planer combo, and maybe even later, a sliding saw. Hmm, maybe Felder for the 20" JP, and MM for the slider?

Anyway, if you have any questions about the Felders, I am sure Kelly would be happy to help you out. If you don't know already, Kelly is a tablesaw safety guru, and prefers the European style machines for their safety features.

His email is kelly@kellymehler.com

Don't forget to let us know your decision and how you came to it.

[John Renzetti]

Chris wrote "I'm not trying to bash Felder but I have a friend who ended up selling his Felder J/P due to poor CS. He just couldn't get the support he needed and ended up very frustrated."

Hi Chris, I'm not bashing MM but I know a guy that didn't like the way he got treated at MM and sold his 315 saw and got a Felder Format Kappa 40. Is that an indictement of MM, of course not. But you can see where something like this can go. Your friend may have had what he thought was less than top notch support, or he may have just wanted to sell the machine and get separates since that is what he is more comfortable with. No company is perfect but I know Felder tries and MM tries. Even Laguna who seems to take a bashing on their own website, has made a good effort at getting customer service in the forefront.
I did some checking and found that Charley was sent a catalog right away but a typo in the address caused it to be sent back. Another went out via next day air.
As I said before, a good determination of what you want in a machine and how you work, plus your budget should tell you what to buy. Close proximity to a dealer is a plus, but if that's not the correct machine for what you do, then that closeness is not going to be a very valuable plus point.
take care,
John

[Richard McComas]

Hi Chris, I have a Felder after sales service story for you.

I have several pieces of Felder equipment including the AD 741 (16” J/P) which I really love, (If you can love an inanimate object,) anyway I bought this Felder J/P slightly used from Felder. I say slightly used because in was never plugged in and used by the original owner who was Walt Disney Productions. The machine was used as a prop in the movie “ The Bicentennial man” with Robin Williams.

Soon after I received my machine I experience a problem with the outfeed table not holding its setting in relation to the cutter head. I would set the outfeed table dead even with the knives, use the machine and then the next day I’d have to reset the table because the table would creep up a few thousandths of and inch.

Now I’m going to make a long short. I called Felder to inform them of the problem. Felder talked me thru some trouble shooting steps and adjustment, which in the end didn’t work. I called them back and we did some more trouble shooing on over the phone. When the problem could not be solved over the phone Felder scheduled a technician to visit my shop.


Again to make a long story short Felder flew a technician to my shop in Alaska on 3 different occasions to fix my machine. On the third and finial visit Felder installed a complete and new outfeed table on my J/P and it has worked perfect since. Had felder not been able to fix the machine I feel confident they would have replaced it.

I later found out that the movie crew had abused the machine by dragging it about the set, across the beach and lifting it my it’s tables.

BTW I have an electric planer table lift kit on my J/P and find changing functions to be not big deal. On the Felder it takes less that a minute and the tables are spring loaded making them very easy to lift or lower.

PS Felder never charged me one cent for the 3 trips to Alaska.

Rich