Bench chisel handles

[David farmer]

Thanks for the posting help.

[Pat Barry]

I would be embarrassed to have a Lee Valley, Blue Spruce , or Stanley socket chisel on my bench.

Why in the world do you find tools from these makers embarrassing? Must be because they would be too new?

[Derek Cohen]

Steve's chisels are the most like mine. Don's carving tools are nice, but quite fat for my taste. Larry's tools are a lot like the Swiss made carving tools, which are popular among professional carvers. I have a few but prefer a straight taper octagon.

It is ludicrous to suggest that 18th century tools like this lack control or induce fatigue. Insulting to suggest that professionals like this did not know what they were doing. For myself I have sometimes carved full time for months at a time using this type of tool. I am reminded of ten years ago when guys were trying to tell Todd Hughes that 18th century workers didn't know how to use planes.

I would be embarrassed to have a Lee Valley, Blue Spruce , or Stanley socket chisel on my bench.

Warren, without explanation, your comments make no sense.

Explain how the design for your handle works for you, if you can. Does the the design of the handle add control, and how? The point of this thread is to learn about handles, and how to build good ergonomics into a design. This aids in either what to buy, or what to make or modify.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I guess it's not really a handle shape issue but I find chisels that are set with the handle nearly parallel with the back of the blade much less ergonomic in use.
Just a few degrees off parallel makes a big difference to me. It seems most western chisels are made this way. One thing that keeps me from buying a LV or LN premium chisel is not enough handle angle. Someday I'll get the courage/knowledge to buy one and try heating and bending it up high near the handle, like a Japanese chisel.
Attachment 343119

(My first post picture. Can anyone tell me why my pictures are so reduced in size?)

Hi David

My post was restricted to bench chisels, however paring chisel design are a current interest of mine.

A paring chisel is for precise work. It is not about power (such as a chisel that is forced through wood with a hammer); it is about making fine, thin cuts to tune a joint and pushed only. These were the chisels of choice of patternmakers.

Traditionally, paring chisels are long to enable movements to create slight changes of direction. In Western chisels the design is a long blade and a short handle. The Japanese, however, have a different take on this, using a long handle and a short blade. Both attempt to do the same thing, that is, create a chisel that offers much feedback. The Japanese do this by keeping the blade short, which keeps the weight down. In my opinion, I think that many have misunderstood the thin blade of Western paring chisels to only offer feedback through their flex. I believe that the thinness is way of keeping the mass down, and it is the lower mass that creates feedback. (Incidentally, Japanese paring chisels are referred to as slicks, but a Western slick is not a paring chisel.)





Then there are others where the handle is offset so that the blade can be kept flat to the surface, or just closer to the surface, than one could with a coplanar blade/handle. An example of these are my own Kiyohisa chisels.





These have offset blades. They are not coplanar with the handle.





This offset allows more of the blade to be used, creating more reference surface, but without requiring a longer blade to do so. Equals more control.

This is not the same as a cranked neck chisel, where the handle is at a much higher angle to create a higher degree of clearance.

Comparing the paring with a bench chisel, the straight Kiyohisa handles do not have something to push against. This is not how they achieve control. Control comes from the length of the chisel, such that small increments at the handle are translated into very fine adjustments at the edge.

With regard to bending the handles of a bench chisel to get the effect, I have doubts that this will work as well as you hope.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

Warren, without explanation, your comments make no sense.

Explain how the design for your handle works for you, if you can. Does the the design of the handle add control, and how? The point of this thread is to learn about handles, and how to build good ergonomics into a design. This aids in either what to buy, or what to make or modify.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ignoring the rest of Warren's comments, I had the same reaction he did to Larry's chisels: The handle configuration and size looks *very* similar to Pfeil Swiss carving tools. I personally like that layout, but handles are probably among the most individual preferences in all of woodworking, so maybe that's just me.

Of course the obvious counterargument is that carving tools are not used in exactly the same manner as chisels, and I think there's some validity to that.

[Stewie Simpson]

Why is a Blue Spruce Dovetail Paring Chisel being included in the opening post when the topic being discussed is bench chisels. And why are all the chisels in the opening post being judged on comfort using paring grip.

[Jim Koepke]

Why is a Blue Spruce Dovetail Paring Chisel being included in the opening post when the topic being discussed is bench chisels. And why are all the chisels in the opening post being judged on comfort using paring grip.

My concept of what constitutes a bench chisel is a wide category. It would not occur to me that a paring chisel didn't fit into the bench chisel category.

My understanding of the thread was for folks to show their chisel handles and if they desired show some in use images. My work has been cut down for a while and may be down awhile longer.

As far as the octagonal handles, they do help prevent smaller chisels from rolling across the bench. If the vertexes of the angles line up between the joints in ones hand they can be a great help with alignment. Again, this comes down to what a person is used to and what feels good in their hands.

Derek,

On the Stanley chisel with the paring handle, it reminds me somewhat of the handles on the Buck Brothers chisels that are so much to my liking for paring. Many chisels have a similar shaping at the base. What works for one works for many.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

Jim, the ergonomics of a paring chisel are uniquely different to that of a chisel that is designed to be struck with a wooden mallet or hammer in an upright position.

[steven c newman]

Maybe something like this?
IMAG0055.jpg
Then again, these were in use....

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, the ergonomics of a paring chisel are uniquely different to that of a chisel that is designed to be struck with a wooden mallet or hammer in an upright position.

That is true. Though some of my chisels with hoops have been used for paring. The hoops seemed more like a double thickness tin foil than an actual hoop for protecting a handle receiving hammer blows.

Some of my chisels with home made handles do receive blows from a mallet. If the handle breaks, another can be made.

jtk

[david charlesworth]

Derek,

I will muddy the water by suggesting that the grips you show are unhelpful.

I control a chisel with the thumb and forefinger of the left hand. (I am right handed.) A pinching grip with the thumb on top.

This controls position and tilt, say for slotting into a knife line.

All I want from the right hand is shove or push, which comes from legs via the palm!

I try not to grip the handle at all, just finger tips resting on the shaft.

This approach applies to horizontal paring.

Much the same logic applies to chopping. The left hand positions and engages the knife line, it then moves to the top of the chisel, but does not grip. I just resists the diving tendency. Grip might twist the edge out of the line.

Of course some people like vertical paring, where there is considerable grip, but I do not like this technique.

These techniques may be seen in my chisel use DVD.

Best wishes,
David

[Derek Cohen]

I control a chisel with the thumb and forefinger of the left hand. (I am right handed.) A pinching grip with the thumb on top.

This controls position and tilt, say for slotting into a knife line....

... I try not to grip the handle at all, just finger tips resting on the shaft.

This approach applies to horizontal paring.

Hi David

I agree that we need to use our legs and lower body as the source of power. This was one of the factors I raised and we discussed and agreed upon in discussing handplanes.

Still, we need to hold tools, and the way we do so determines whether the power is transmitted with optimal control and efficiency.

You do as I do, that is, use the thumb and forefinger. All my photos illustrate this ..



I do not grip a chisel in a "death grip", but just firmly, sometimes quite lightly (the paring chisels especially).

In writing this, it is possible to simplistically separate two group of handles for bench chisels: those with and those without rests for the thumb. All I am saying is that the thumb rest is a way of transferring power. Without it one does need to grip the handle more tightly (and hence it becomes more fatiguing).

Keep in mind that this is just my opinion I am defending here. The question is, does the thumb rest actually do as I believe, or how do others exert control?

Of course, I have chisels handles without the thumb rest. They are easier to make than those with thumb rests.

David, I shall revisit your DVD, which I have.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

Derek,

I am rushing to a class, but for me thumb and forefinger are at the sharp end!! not the handle.

David

[Derek Cohen]

An equally quick reply, David.

The non-dominant hand guides the blade - agreed - while the dominant hand directs the force. Both hands have a task, but it is the hand that holds the handle - and how it holds the handle - that is the focus.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Japanese paring chisel, known as a tsuki nomi (thrust chisel), the maker is Konobu. I put a marking knife in the photos for size.



Japanese carving gouge, for use with a genno, by Konobu.



Oiire nomi (top) in the mentori shape by Kikuhiromaru and Shinogi nomi by Akio Tasai



Mokoumachi nomi (Mortising chisel) by Yamahiro



Ichou-gata nomi (Fishtail chisel) by Kikuhiromaru



Carving gouge by Auriou



Test pin, I included this for another example of an octagon shaped handle