Why buy European machines?

[Rick Fisher]

Did you happen to ask how much that repair would cost if the machine was out of warranty?

A wide belt that failed due to dust would be out of character for Butferring. They had a series they got from Taiwan, not sure if they still do.

I find most Euro companies are either really good about warranty, or terrible.

Felder for example replaced a switch on my RL-160 3 or 4 years after I bought it. Martin only makes their planer with fancy electronics.. I would be shocked if there where a bunch of dead ones out there with failed electronics .. Martin seems to be like Felder, they're still interested after the cheque clears..

[Joe Calhoon]

I am going on 15 to 17 years with my Martins and some other machines with electronics. Lost a circuit board on the shaper with a lightning strike. And a spindle raising motor on the same shaper. It was about $800 each time. That's the only electric things that have happened other than transformers going out on the Colombo tenoner and Hofmann bore machine. You can protect from lightning and surges with aftermarket electronic gadgets. Probably a worthwhile investment if you have a lot of CNC.

I fully expect to start having a few issues as time goes on. It's usually something simple and the challenge is troubleshooting to locate the defective part. A lot of times it's loose connections or corrosion.

[Joe Jensen]

I can be in the Guiness book of Records for sawdust in my computer. every six months of so I might blow it out if im getting someone to look at it. When I blow it out there is a dust storm. You have wonder why electronics fails in machinery, is it dust then why has that not been designed out of it. Wonder if its vibration ive tortured two computers and the dust hasnt done a thing so far, of course it probably will tomorrow since I stated that.

The good news is the industrial electronics are built much more robustly than PCs. The temp range for PCs is 0 - 85 degrees Celsius. For most industrial electronics it's neg 40 - 100 Celsius. Also often the circuit boards are coated to protect them from dust and moisture.

[Larry Edgerton]

I am not attacking you guys that are buying Martins, hell, if my business could support it I would buy new as well. Would have a nice blue shop, probably paint the walls to match.

My point is that as they age and circuitry and its components change and electrical parts become unobtainable, I do not believe they will not hold their value like the older machines have done. A thirty year old Martin is worth darn near what it costs new if it has been cared for. I realize that many businesses have a short life expectancy for a tools time in their shop, but not a lot of us.

Look at a ten year old Mercedes, not worth much because no one wants to take a chance on huge repair bills. I just sold a BMW 535 for no other reason than it was closing in on maintenance that would cost more than the car was worth.

I really do not like them not having mechanical overrides. As my only shaper, I would be dead in the water for how long? And although I can fix just about anything mechanical, like a lot of people in smaller woodworking business, electronics do not fall into that category. I would have to call in a tech, and just getting them to my location would cost more than I want to pay, let alone the bill. I can't have too many big surprises in my business, the margin is just not there in my area. I'd move to a better area, but I'm too old and have things pretty much the way I like them here now other than way too much competition for too few jobs.

But, being able to drop on a cutter and have the shaper go to previous setting would sure be nice...........

[Joe Calhoon]

I hear you Larry and wish they had overrides also but don't think that is going to happen. Its cheaper for the mfgs to motorize movements than have handwheels and the such. To have both would drive up the costs even more.

[Keith Weber]

Electronics is always a concern with older machines. My 2001 Aldendorf F45 has digital readouts on the rip fence and crosscut flip stops, but it still has analog scales and adjustments are manual, so I won't be dead in the water if they ever failed. If they did, I'd probably go to third party replacements to save the horrendous replacement costs.

The blade tilt and height adjustments are all digital, though, with no manual backups, so those worry me. I shudder to think of what it would cost to replace the complicated circuit board behind the panel and fly in a tech to troubleshoot and/or fix it. It all depends how lucky you are. I have a LED alarm clock that I got in about 1979, and it's been plugged in for the last 38 years without a break other than power outages and a dozen or so moves. It still works perfect. It says Made in Hong Kong on the back. On the opposite side, I had a Palm Pilot years ago that literally died about one week after the warranty ran out.

[Larry Edgerton]

I hear you Larry and wish they had overrides also but don't think that is going to happen. Its cheaper for the mfgs to motorize movements than have handwheels and the such. To have both would drive up the costs even more.

I got jinxed! Went to the shop early this morning to run some stock, and the electric lift on my planer quit.

[Martin Wasner]

The electric controls in a production environment is priceless to me. On the widebelt, we've got quick sets. Hit 1 on the keypad and it goes to .788 which is our first pass on prep'd 4/4 stock. When I put the last part in, I hit 2 and wait for the guy tailing to yell clear, then press "enter". The machine is finding it's position while we're jockey-ing carts around.

It makes setting almost idiot proof.

Rick beat me to it, y'all need to make friends with an electrical engineer. Down is down though. Some days you can't afford anything to go wrong. It's been mentioned already, but almost none of this stuff is proprietary on the simpler pieces of equipment. A fully automated shaper the software and controller are likely a different story. Same with edge banders. But that's also a different story. Much more complicated with a lot more components compared to an up/down controller with a magnetic pick up.

It's a question of whether or not the cost of convenience is less than the cost of down time. I think in most scenarios it'll be more profitable running the mild automation.

[Joe Calhoon]

Larry, If it is a problem with a dc transformer or switch and not getting current to the lifting motor you can power the dc motor with a 24 volt or so cordless battery. might be something simple as a tripped switch in the box. Replacement transformers for these are easy to find here.

When the lifting motor went out of our Martin shaper I removed it and ran the up and down with a driver on a cordless drill. We had a new motor in a couple days.
Joe

[Rick Fisher]

Sorry about your planer Larry

I got jinxed too .. lol

When I fired up the new Planer .. It ran fine, but when I turn it off, it trips 2 micro breakers in the T-60 slider.

Like Gremlins. Slider is sitting there, not being used, and it shuts down ..

So I shifted all the wires on the breaker in the 3 phase panel.. and the problem went away ..

Except now when I turn the T-60 table saw off .. it trips the exact same breakers Q11 and Q12 on the Planer

Its actually kinda funny ..

So it appears I need to disconnect the power from one Martin Machine in order to be able to run the other ..

They are only connected through a 3 phase panel, each has its own breaker ..

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Sorry about your planer Larry

I got jinxed too .. lol

When I fired up the new Planer .. It ran fine, but when I turn it off, it trips 2 micro breakers in the T-60 slider.

Like Gremlins. Slider is sitting there, not being used, and it shuts down ..

So I shifted all the wires on the breaker in the 3 phase panel.. and the problem went away ..

Except now when I turn the T-60 table saw off .. it trips the exact same breakers Q11 and Q12 on the Planer

Its actually kinda funny ..

So it appears I need to disconnect the power from one Martin Machine in order to be able to run the other ..

They are only connected through a 3 phase panel, each has its own breaker ..

So you cannot run both machines at the same time?

[Brian Holcombe]

Sounds like something that Martin (the company) would advise on.

[Rick Fisher]

So you cannot run both machines at the same time?

Nooo.. worse than that ..

Picture a machine sitting ... doing nothing .. nobody working on it.. It has an internal electrical cabinet with its own breaker, contactors etc.

You run an entirely different machine, and when you turn it off.. it causes breakers to trip in the machine which is sitting there doing nothing ..

In order to run one machine, I need to completely isolate the other one .. Turning it off isn't sufficient, it needs its breaker turned off ..

There are 5 machines running off that panel.. its the two Martins that are screwing with each other .. I'm getting an electrician to come next week and run a bunch of tests.

[Warren Lake]

this happens sometimes, you have a pet get another one and have issues, you have a child stork brings another one and then issues, mom likes you best type thing. I can trade you an SCM for either and you would be fine. Know im grasping at straws here but just trying to help

[Larry Edgerton]

Nooo.. worse than that ..

Picture a machine sitting ... doing nothing .. nobody working on it.. It has an internal electrical cabinet with its own breaker, contactors etc.

You run an entirely different machine, and when you turn it off.. it causes breakers to trip in the machine which is sitting there doing nothing ..

In order to run one machine, I need to completely isolate the other one .. Turning it off isn't sufficient, it needs its breaker turned off ..

There are 5 machines running off that panel.. its the two Martins that are screwing with each other .. I'm getting an electrician to come next week and run a bunch of tests.

Things look better in odd numbers, I suspect if you add a shaper that all will be well.