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Thread: Overarm guard caused TS kickback?

  1. #1
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    Overarm guard caused TS kickback?

    More accurately or more probably, my poor adjustment of an Excalibur guard resulted in kickback today, resulting in 10 stitches to the back of my left thumb. I’ll describe the set-up, the results, post pics of the setup and the two pieces of material being cut and wait for responses re: what I did wrong and how can this be prevented in the future.

    The task: cut 5 pieces of 1/8” Dibond (a signmaker’s sheet material – solid plastic core with aluminum faces front and back) down from 12” x 13” - 15” to 12” x 12”. In other words, cut 1 to 3 inches off one end. Single cut, each piece.

    Before I turned on the machine, the plastic guard housing was offset left, close to the blade. I centered it (approximately) over the blade. With the fence set at 12”, I began cutting. On the second cut, the 1 1/2 x 12 offcut kicked back and caught my left hand square on the back of my thumb. The workpiece, that between the fence and blade, never moved. The kickback must have occurred after I had cleared the blade with the workpiece, for in the aftermath, there it sat, tight to the fence and several inches past the blade. The offcut sat on the front of the table, where it dropped after hitting my hand. Tomorrow’s pics will make it clear why it kicked back. What is still conjecture at this point is why it got into position to kick back.

    I believe that the offcut was riding just inside the left edge of the plastic guard housing, and a small lateral shift of the housing that occurred when the workpiece cleared the blade and guard forced the offcut into the path of the back of the blade. If so, then the gross error was in not making sure that the left edge of the guard housing was on top of the offcut, an adjustment that would need to be checked before each cut. I will confirm this, if true, when I reconstruct the incident tomorrow.

    Other considerations:
    1.There is no splitter installed. I’m not sure that one would have helped. Perhaps. I’ll take the heat if you all disagree.
    2.A sled would probably have been a wiser option, but I have become enamored with the overhead dust/chip collection of the Excalibur, and my sleds don’t allow use of same. Poor excuse, in retrospect. This may have been the gross error.
    3.The overhead suction may have contributed to movement of the offcut, but I doubt it. I have seen it move veneer-thin strips and small chunks or knots,
    4.The blade was left too high. Again, I doubt this was a major factor.
    5.The cuts could also have been made on the SCMS.

    I offer all this to warn any similarly ignorant Excalibur users as to the possible danger with this type of cut and to gain feedback so as to prevent it from ever happening again. I am quite aware of kickback causality between fence and blade, and always take care to prevent it. This is the first time I’ve experienced kickback from the left of the blade.

    As an aside, I was not positioned to the left of my workpiece, as is generally recommended. Had I been so, I believe I would have suffered torsal or head trauma – Dibond edges are sharp! As it is, I nearly severed the extensor tendon in the thumb, the one that allows the thumb to straighten. I’m in a splint for 2 – 3 weeks while the tendon (presumably) heals.

    So fire away folks, and Excalibur users be warned. Pics, and perhaps further enlightenment tomorrow.

    Bruce

  2. #2
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    I wonder if the piece somehow managed to find itself at the back of the blade vs the side of the blade? I've had a very long (10'+) off-cut kick back when it teetered on the back of the saw and came back down on the blade....left a nice little hole in my t-shirt But I haven't ever had a piece kick from rubbing the side of the blade....I would think it pretty hard to build up any serious momentum from that spot??? Mind you we're talking about the off-cut side where there's not much pressure even if the guard were moving around a bit. Fence side is obviously a different story.

    Oh and yes a splitter, or even better a riving knife, would very likely made all the difference in the world. It's position prevents a piece from being pushed into the back of the blade. It would also affect the piece from being pushed into the side if that does turn out to be the case.

    good luck, hope your thumb heals well!
    JeffD

  3. #3
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    I hope also that your thumb heal okay

  4. #4
    Bruce,
    I am very sorry to hear about your accident. The two factors that I notice are: blade height too high and no riving knife. The back of the blade is where kickback starts and riving knives and using a low blade height minimize the exposure of the back of the blade.
    Also I have not heard to stand to the left of the blade. Isn't it generally recommended to stand to the right of the blade and out of the line of the blade?
    Good luck healing and let us know if you have any additional insight.
    Salem

  5. #5
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    I once experienced kickback using my sawstop PCS with the dust-collecting blade guard in place. To be sure, it's not an overarm style- it connects to the splitter. Similar deal- the offcut (left side of the blade) kicked back after I completed the cut. Like I said, the blade guard attaches to the splitter, so I had the splitter installed.

    In my case, the blade guard has "flaps" on either side and has a very narrow profile, presumably so that you can use it for narrow cuts. The problem is that the blade guard effectively pushed the off cut back into the blade.

    Luckily I learned my lesson from another kickback I experienced that permanently scarred my forehead (search for the thread I started about a year ago if you want blood and gore!), so I was standing well out of the line of fire. I was actually holding the keeper piece in place, watching the offcut slowly move back into the blade, gritting my teeth, and trying to bump the "stop" switch with my knee. I definitely saw it coming. I now have a dent in the wall.

    Anyway, I had a different setup than you are describing, but I wanted to mention it because it's evidence that a blade guard, even with a splitter installed, can cause kickback.

  6. #6
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    I have an Excalibur and I am having trouble envisioning this. It's the lateral movement -- how did that happen? There is some side-to-side play in the scissor arm, but your stock is moving through perpendicular to that. I cannot see how it would impart a force to create a lateral movement. I very roughly ran a small piece of MDF through mine (saw not on) and couldn't get the housing to move left to right.

    I think your problem is the splitter or lack thereof. A blade guard will not prevent kickback but I can't see how it would cause it. Originally, I didn't use the stock blade guard/splitter on my saw, and I had it throw a couple of offcuts (once my wife crosscut a 2 by 2 and it threw the offcut and I took it to the chest because I was in the line of fire -- ouch).

    Maybe pictures will help, but I'm thinking splitter.

    Cheers,

    Chris
    If you only took one trip to the hardware store, you didn't do it right.

  7. #7
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    Lack of splitter was/is a major cause of the kickback. As others stated, it would have kept offcut from getting much momentum from the blade. It went around the back and then was lifted and thrown at you. Put it on, or get a low profile that would be under your guard.

  8. #8
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    Bruce i was thinking about this during the red sox rain delay and we can talk tomorrow...( bruce and i work together, and he was cutting my dibond for me when this happened. )

    Could the dust collection from the blade guard have moved the off cut into the blade? We should experiment tomorrow...with blade off.

  9. #9
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    I have had kick back initiated by the off-cut piece being lifted up by the strong suction at the guard; I was fortunate that the guard did its job in preventing the piece hitting me.
    I should say the riving knife was installed properly (on a sawstop) but since the dc outlet was more to the front of the guard the off-cut piece was directed to the front half of the blade.
    I think I posted in a thread that too much of a good thing (DC suction) could be a bad thing in some situations...

  10. #10
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    While I know the back of the blade is more likely to throw the work piece at you, remember that any of the teeth along the circumference can throw the work piece back at you too... the splitter keeps the work piece from twisting and pinching on the blade, but it will do nothing to keep the offcut from being thrown if it touches any other of the teeth on the blade (i.e., the top or front of the blade). As I said earlier, I had kickback with the splitter installed, and mreza also had this happen with his riving knife installed.

    Absolutely put a splitter on the saw- I'm not arguing that. And a splitter very well could've prevented this accident (no way to know based on the info provided), but if the blade guard is somehow messing with your offcut piece, a splitter won't guarantee that you won't get kickback. You need to figure out how or if it was caused by the blade guard and address that too.

  11. #11
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    Sorry to hear your accident and wishing you a speedy recovery. I will reccomend two of these. they are not cheap, but will address all the issues that led to your accident. Obviously, they are many options out there and ways to deal with it, but I have been using two of these for years now (I had a kickback many years ago and appreciate the danger). These are great for small strips as thin as 3/16. With two I keep one in contact at all times feeding long boards through the blade. It applies equal pressure on the material on the left and right of the blade and keeps things at bay I do use the microjig as a low profile splitter as added safety and its easily removable.

    http://www.microjig.com/

  12. #12
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    UPDATE: It was easy to reproduce the cause of the kick back this morning, and i will let bruce explain further, but the suction of the overhead dust collection hose was strong enough to lift the off cut off the table an into the blade. This was compounded by the fact that the off cut was slightly smaller than the space between the Plexiglas of the blade guard, and the blade. So a teaching moment for sure. There are some unanswered questions, and he will put some pictures up.

    Here is the video
    View My Video
    Last edited by Tim Morton; 08-01-2012 at 2:27 PM.

  13. #13
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    Hope you heal fast and well. My information is pretty useless after the fact but, I do appreciate your sharing. It adds some credence to what I am currently doing and we are always better off when sharing information as opposed to making decisions in a vacuum. I do not use the overarm on cuts that result in small pieces. Small is a relative term based on your DC and your material density but, for me its anything the DC can pick up or move. I use the same logic on the router table and the DP for that matter ;-)
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

  14. #14
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    Sorry to hear about your injury but thanks for posting this. I was confused about why you thought the guard itself bumped the offcut... doesn't the excalubur ride above the workpiece??

    The subject came up in a thread about blade guards a week or so ago. I have done some small experimentation with this myself as I have a powerful 5hp DC that can lift small offcuts. I have DIY guard that rides completely above the piece though... no chance of "bumping" the workpiece with it.

    Obviously lighter, smaller pieces will be more easily affected by the suction. The thin sign material you are using is probably fairly light and easily moved by the airstream. A splitter might help in this situation, but I don't think it will 100% avoid it, as the piece can still try to rotate to get closer to the air suction, and then the front corner could still strike the blade.

    As Tim mentioned, the most dangerous situation is when the offcut is thin enough to actually fit between the blade and guard side. In addition to hitting the blade, it could somehow bind up inside the guard. Hopefully it just harmlessly shoots behind the blade (i've seen this once), but if it gets stuck somehow, that could get nasty.

    Longer and wider pieces are less dangerous since they have enough mass elsewhere to keep them down.

    What I found was that when making small offcuts, making sure the blade guard was around 0.5" above the workpiece stopped all instances of the piece being moved by the airstream.

    Of course dust collection efficiency suffers, but I think its a good idea when making smaller offcuts. When doing most thing I run the blade guard closer to 0.25" above, or a tiny bit less.

  15. #15
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    So too much dust collection CAN be a bad thing huh?!? Who would've thought!

    So how will you address this? Open another blast gate in the system to reduce suction and/or choke the blade guard blast gate down?

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