Machining wood versus hand planing for tonal quality

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Good day all,

I was just sitting here thinking about tonal qualities of wood- you know, the sort of thing most people think about early in the morning ;-). I have this amazing single piece of WRC that was cut in the early 70's (not by me) and is big enough for a single piece top for a classical guitar. It has over 30 growth rings per inch and rings like glass when you tap it. I have been waiting for the right moment, as well as for me to develop my skill, before building the "Tonemeister."

While thinking about tonal qualities of wood, I also was thinking about sharpening molding plane blades. (Stay with me here- this will come together.) I was thinking about how when sharpening on a machine, I have to worry about the heat generated, which we all know can change the metal's hardness. Then I thought about when you machine wood. It generates heat- enough to burn the wood if not careful. I started to wonder- could heat change (ever so slightly) the crystaline structure of the aged sap in the wood, thus changing the tonal qualities? I'm not talking huge changes here- I am talking concert guitar for a tone nerd who can hear silent dog whistles and tones other normal people can't hear.

I thought I'd see what others thought about this theory.

Cheers,

Malcolm

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I guess I should clarify that I am suggesting that using hand tools could be BETTER for tonal quality than using power tools- in the ever-so-slightest way.

[Chris Fournier]

This is the kind of thinking, if done by 25 people or more that makes conferences that move the guitar as a stringed forward by zero. This is the kind of speculation that creates experts who have no way of proving their theories but are nonetheless wexperts. If you machine wood and generate enough heat to melt "sap" then you need to change your blades and move on. You are not dealing with the molecular minutiae, simply ignoring the fundamentals of woodworking.

Build as light an instrument as you can that will play for 30 to 40 years and you have built a guitar worth building. One that responds to the minimal string energy that it has and amplifies it as much and as honestly as it can.

Luthiers are pragmatic, hobby guitar makers are dramatic. Please feel free to tell me how you can hear two hand padded layers of shellac under lacquer comapred to vinyl sanding sealer under said same lacquer.

Build honestly and you will make a fine instrument, no amount of theortetical conjecture replaces solid execution. Remember that for the most part people want an instrument that sounds like something from 50 to 100 years ago, you ain't inventing, you're replicating.

I'm not brow beating the OP but certainly trying to be pragmatic. Stick to the well worn path and you'll be successful, cryogenically treat your spruce top and you're missing the point. Might as well sell your soul to the devil for divine tone a la Robert Johnson.

See you at the Cross Roads.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Sounds like you already sold your soul to the devil. It was just a curiosity. Thank you for your colorful response.

[george wilson]

Nah,he's just passionate!!

[Chris Fournier]

I may have but it wasn't to build the perfect guitar!

If you use the classic materials and build well your guitar will sound great and as anticipated. I don't doubt that you've done so already!

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Actually I grew up in Mississippi and know where the crossroads are where old hwy 1 meets Hwy 61. I play a lot of slide blues. For that I prefer a crapped out cheapie rusted resonator.

Anyway, it was meant for coffee table type discussion, not world problem solving. The thought came to me as thinking about woods for the guitar and also thinking about sharpening on the grinder.

[Chris Fournier]

Actually I grew up in Mississippi and know where the crossroads are where old hwy 1 meets Hwy 61. I play a lot of slide blues. For that I prefer a crapped out cheapie rusted resonator.

Anyway, it was meant for coffee table type discussion, not world problem solving. The thought came to me as thinking about woods for the guitar and also thinking about sharpening on the grinder.

It would be interesting to know about the heat generated at the cutting edge when machining wood but boy would that be difficult to truly quantify. In metal working they say that a properly set up operation puts most of the heat into the chip. I wonder if WWK'g is the same?

A resonator's nasal tone always makes me pay attention, I really enjoy that sound.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't think heat is a big issue when machining wood unless the feed speed is too low. It is easy to over heat the steel while making the knives or sharpening them, even with the coolant flowing over them it's easy to burn the common cheap
grade of semi HHS while using the hard detail wheels to make the sharp corners etc. With the real HHS,usually only gotten by up charge and demanding it by grade, the same amount of heat doesn't spoil the knife.

[William Adams]

It's an interesting idea.

Might even be a way to work out testing it (cut two book-matched pieces of wood by hand, then plane each down to identical dimension, one by hand, the other w/ a machine), but the problem is even the double-blind tests which I'm aware of are inconclusive --- music is fundamentally an expression of emotion and spirit, which is a hard thing to unambiguously test for.

[george wilson]

Are you using air dried or KILN DRIED wood(already subjected to heat)?

This is one of those threads where we are debating how many angels can dance on a pin head. I mean,really,how hot do your tools get? I haven't noticed in 50+ years significant heat in wood coming out of a thickness planer. Maybe if you let the knives get as blunt as butter knives.

[Matthew N. Masail]

It has been said about Torres the during glue up he rubbed the back with alcohol (or something) a lit it on fire, it would burn for a few seconds, re-heating the hide glue so he could apply pressure and be sure of a solid glue joint. so.. heat bad? I dunnu, wood can also get pretty hot setting in the sun.

[Julie Moriarty]

Are you using air dried or KILN DRIED wood(already subjected to heat)?

The latest FWW has an article about putting wood in the oven in your kitchen.

In another article they discuss moisture content and include images of the USA showing MC changes for indoor wood between the summer and winter. There's one section in western Kansas, that touches Oklahoma and Texas to the south and Nebraska to the north, where there is close to zero MC seasonal change for indoor wood. Seems like a good place to build instruments.

[Shawn Pixley]

Relative to the other 54,000 things that go into an instrument, I think this is a relative non-issue. It is an interesting question though.

[William Adams]

Apparently bowyers used to be very superstitious as well, but a bunch of research was done and discussed and reproduced and published, culminating in the Traditional Bowyers Bible series (now up to 4 volumes).

But, how far/fast an arrow is propelled is much easier to measure and far less ambiguous and emotionally charged than the tone of a musical instrument or whether or no a fly rod helps one fish.