Kickbacks.

[Larry Fox]

....Darwinism...

Funny you should mention that as the Darwin Awards were the very first thing I though of when I read your post.

My opinion -- your shop, your hands / face / gut / crotch / whatever - do whatever you want. My shop, my hands / face / gut / crotch / whatever - guards where I can, splitter, push sticks / blocks almost 100% of the time.

[Norman Pyles]

Hey Karl, are you as good with a fishing pole as you are with a table saw?

[Floyd Mah]

5000 rpm x 10 inches x 3.14
divided by 60 seconds / min results in a rough estimate of the tooth of a
saw blade's speed. Approximately 2616 inches per second.

Car travelling at 100 miles per hour is moving at
5280 x 100 feet per hour x 12 inches per ft
divided by 3600 seconds per hour = 1760 inches per second.

I would wait until it was at my funeral before I would brag that I risked by life or limb by putting either at risk that close to something travelling at 148 miles per hour. I've had objects thrown by saw blades and it (or **it) happens before you can even think.

[Chris Yarish]

I used to race motocross and currently do the same with downhill mountain bikes....both sports are very dangerous. People have lost their lives or become paralyzed doing what I do for fun.

I have reached a level of near mastery in both of them, but never once removed or compromised any of the myriad of pieces of protective armor that I began with, nor have I ever been so disillusioned as to believe that my level of mastery entails a low to non-existent level of risk.
I just don't.

Sure my helmet is hot and at times uncomfortable, my Leatt neck brace was almost prohibitively expensive and sometimes makes sighting up a corner difficult, my knee / shin pads have a pressure point in them that leaves a bruise after I use them and the seam in my gloves causes me to have a blister on my hand.

I can point to dozens of "problems" and inconveniences that stem from my safety apparel, but I can also point to dozens of potential things that can happen as a result of not using them. The benefits far outweigh the costs, both in severity and magnitude--concussions, brain damage, paralysis, smashed bones, rocks embedded in my palms, etc....I'll take inconvenience, blisters, costly Visa bills and the like over more permanent damages.

There are things that can happen at any time and will happen independent of my level of mastery in the respective sports. That is why accidents are defined as "unexpected and undesirable events, especially one resulting in damage or harm."

I, for one, don't applaud the OP's opinion because I think it's not only arrogant to believe what he believes, it is, as another poster stated, irresponsible as a veteran of the craft to market this flawed and old fashioned perspective in a venue where novices seek expert advice.

I'm unsure where he thinks mastery, experience, or "being careful" supercedes using safety devices and mechanisms that were designed, not by agents of litigation, but by experienced manufacturers and craftspeople alike. The Sawstop is a perfect example. He, along with others of his ilk, seem to ignore one very valuable piece of information--wood and machinery are inherently unpredictable things to work with.

Saying "I have worked successfully without an injury for "x" number of years, therefore my practices are 100% safe and safety measures are a bigger vice than they are a virtue" is a bizarre standard by which to evaluate or discuss the broader issue of shop safety. There is no such thing as "low to non-existent" risk when dealing with so many unpredictable variables. Does he think that anyone who gets injured, regardless of their years of experience, just didn't pay enough attention, or just wasn't careful enough? No, he is just one of the very individuals who will get injured and become the identity of those he has compartmentalized and mischaracterized as "careless". Control is an illusion maintained by those who believe they possess it....until they no longer have it.

The OP might conclude that he has control over all the variables that he needs to have control over, but wood is unpredictable. Machines are unpredictable. The accuracy, dependability and wear patterns of his machines are unpredictable....even his own awareness is unpredictable.

Accidents don't happen intentionally, and they aren't selective in who they affect. They happen randomly to people of all levels of experience. Pretending that you are immune, based solely on past experiences, is naive and irresponsible.

What you are is lucky.


May good fortune continue to follow you.
.....and novice woodworkers not.

[John Coloccia]

The Sawstop is a perfect example. He, along with others of his ilk, seem to ignore one very valuable piece of information--wood and machinery are inherently unpredictable things to work with.

What's worse is the attitude that using such devices makes you less of a woodworker....maybe less of a man, I suppose. That's certainly the implication, esp. with the SawStop. As an engineer, a pilot and a woodworker, I know that safety is never absolute. "Safe" conditions are created by using redundant layers of protection such that it requires multiple failures to create an unsafe condition. Just because someone might perform an operations thousands of times without injury doesn't mean that the operation is safe. Any time it requires only one small failure of man or machine for an injury to occur, that is inherently an unsafe condition regardless of the skill of the operator.

So for example, as a pilot if I'm expecting to complete a flight in good weather conditions, I would not take off into marginal weather even if all indications are that the weather will not worsen or will improve at my destination. That would reduce my safety margin to nill. I could decide, however, to take off into great weather conditions even knowing that the weather may worsen a bit at my destination. That gives me safety margin. I can always decide to land short if I don't like what I see enroute or if weather at my destination unexpectedly becomes marginal. If you start out with bad weather (i.e. no margin), things need to go perfectly and/or you have to catch some lucky breaks.

I also fly aerobatics. I've never broken an airplane in the air, but I still wear a parachute. Aerobatic flying is inherently "unsafe" in that you're stressing the aircraft right up to it's design limits. A little bit of turbulence at the wrong time, yanking too hard at the wrong time, or just a plain ole' screw up can certainly cause very important bits and pieces to separate from the aircraft (wings, tails, etc). I'd like to think that it's a bit more than just luck that I haven't broken anything. I'd like to think that it's skill and training that allows me to push to the limit, but no further. I still wear a parachute when I'm boring holes in the sky, though. I'm not comfortable assuming that both I and the airplane will perform perfectly every single time. Too risky for me.

Pushing a board through with your thumb about a 1/2" away from a blade, for example, seems excessively and needlessly risky to me, regardless of perfect technique. That's just my opinion.

And that's my take.

[Karl Brogger]

Tried to help you folks out, I get a bunch of attitude in return. It saddens me that I'll keep having to wade through post after post of people un-willing to get the most from thier equipment, or skills. But if you enjoy wasting time in the shop go for it. I hate it, have for a long time. I just do it for the paycheck, so anything that can save me time I'm going to do it, and instruct those under my employ to do so as well.


edit- and for those with the what if approach. Sorry, there really are no surprises in this. Its the same crap over, and over, and over again. As for that time I don't pay attention, well then maybe I should've paid attention when that time comes, and that'll be a nice reminder to do it correctly the next time.

You guys take something that really is simple, and make it really complicated. I used to tell new guys who would get something that they thought was tough to build that all it is, is glue, wood, and nails. Everytime, its the same thing, slightly different shape, maybe a different color, that's about it.

[Chris Yarish]

Tried to help you folks out, I get a bunch of attitude in return. It saddens me that I'll keep having to wade through post after post of people un-willing to get the most from thier equipment, or skills. But if you enjoy wasting time in the shop go for it. I hate it, have for a long time. I just do it for the paycheck, so anything that can save me time I'm going to do it, and instruct those under my employ to do so as well.


edit- and for those with the what if approach. Sorry, there really are no surprises in this. Its the same crap over, and over, and over again. As for that time I don't pay attention, well then maybe I should've paid attention when that time comes, and that'll be a nice reminder to do it correctly the next time.

You guys take something that really is simple, and make it really complicated. I used to tell new guys who would get something that they thought was tough to build that all it is, is glue, wood, and nails. Everytime, its the same thing, slightly different shape, maybe a different color, that's about it.

I guess if you post 90% valuable information on any message board and 10% garbage, you'll have posters comment on the garbage.

If I were a relationship expert, I could write a long essay on some pretty tried and true ways to romance and seduce a woman. But if I got to the part when you're rounding home base with the lady and I neglect to talk about a condom, I better get some strong opinons on that last part.
Forget the 90% valuable information was even said....all anybody will walk away with remembering is the 10% garbage.

So, if you make claims to be a professional, a veteran, or an experienced individual at any craft or profession, and you offer advice as though it should have cerdibility among your peers, don't lash out at us if we don't agree with the soundness of your advice.

There are a lot of people with missing fingers, holes in garage doors, broken digits and bruised insides because they thought and acted as you do, but lived to dole out a few level headed warnings to the rest of us.

[Chris Yarish]

What's worse is the attitude that using such devices makes you less of a woodworker....maybe less of a man, I suppose. That's certainly the implication, esp. with the SawStop.

That is almost always one of the implicit messages by the anti-safety measure camp.

In this case, the gentleman is too concerned with profitibility and productivity to "waste" his time with guards and push sticks, and instructs his people to follow his example. Looks like Darwin teaches woodworking.

It's unfortunate that this is the logic--that being safe costs precious time. Well, how long does it take for me to pop out a splitter from my TS to make room for using a dado blade? About 15 seconds (+blade change, but that time is static). How about my table saw blade guard? Maybe 8 seconds. How long to use a push stick? Same as using my hand.

The time difference, if I were to have to remove all safety features and use a push stick, would be a whopping 23 seconds. Placing it back on, adds a little bit more time for the splitter, but a bit less for the guard, so it evens out.
I'm not willing to lose any fingers or launch any material into myself or my shop for 46 seconds of saved time. I can do a lot of things differently to make up for that lost time.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I know I've been guilty of cracking jokes at the sawstop, but still I don't know how this turned into such an argument... heh

Karl is just giving safety TIPS and his own opinion on what works for him. Everyone that reads it will use their own judgement whether to use his advice or not.

If there's a novice woodworker that is going to do whatever they read without thinking about it first, then maybe that person deserves to lose a digit..

Anyways, Ill-informed safety can prove disastrous as well... There's always the horror stories about people losing their HANDS from wearing leather gloves when working with machines.

I'd rather just be a "gatherer" of safety information and then use what's right for the occasion.

If I'm swimming in a pool I'm not going to wear a life vest because I know how to swim. Though in another instance, if I was on jet ski or raft in choppy waters, chances are I'd probably be wearing a life vest.

It all depends on the person and circumstance. There is no right or wrong, though some choices have a higher risk than others.

That's what this thread is all about right? Taking risks?

P.S. - It doesn't make "Mr. Safety" any less of a woodworker because he wears eye and ear protection sharpening a pencil. It just makes him a "safer" woodworker.

[Larry Frank]

I found this entire thread to be a little frightening. However, each person using such equipment should take the time to understand it, the dangers and then decide what precautions that they want to take and the risks that they want to assume. For my part, I will use the push sticks, hold downs and other safety devices.

I worked for almost 40 years in the business of making steel and being around liquid steel that was over 3000°F. Yes, I was very comfortable about knowing what was dangersous and what not to do. However, I wore every safety piece of equipment that I could. Even though I thought that I knew what I was doing, there was always that chance.

In addition, it was managements responsibility to make certain that every employee was properly trained and wearing their safety equipment. I would be very cautious of telling an employee not to use certain safety equipment such as the guards on a table saw. That appears to be a quick way to be on the wrong end of a law suit.

[John Shuk]

I witnessed a kick back (W/injury) and a cut off finger tip. Both happened within a half hour of each other and both were inexperienced operators. I don't want any part of either. I'll stick with the safety stuff. I've NOT run multitudes of bd ft past a table saw blade and I know that I'm the weak link. Knowing that I try to put as many things on my side as possible.

[Paul Ryan]

I applaud Karl for his willingness shall we say "go against the grain". I am not affraid to say that some of Karl's practices I use as well. No guard, fence slightly toe'd out, and others. Karl never once said "this is how every one should do it" he just described what works for him.

I don't believe being skittish of the hunk of metal spinning around at 3400 RPM makes you unsafe, it makes you respect what it is. I am a Sawstop owner and not afraid to say it. I believe since the saw is every bit as good and anything else and it has a saftey device that can prevent a catastophy in the event of having a "bad hair day". That it is a smart tool to own. I too believe that many of the saftey practices preached here are way over kill. But that is just my opinion.

I will do as I do and feel that with anything there are acceptable and unacceptable risks. I have done many stupid things in my life, some that many will think were unacceptable risks. To me I like to think of them as learning experiences. As I get older the unacceptable risks seem to grow. I think of that as wisdom. But I also think one can be too saftey conscience. If you fall in that category you will never learn the hard way. And those lessons are the most valuable that can be learned. But it is up to us as individuals to decide what is an acceptable risk and what it unacceptable.

[Stephen Edwards]

I reckon 10 outta 11 ain't a bad score in Karl's first post in this thread. Number 8 is bad advice even for a pro, especially coming from a "pro", IMO. To each their own.

As others have said, and I agree, most people on this and other forums are here to learn and get sound advice. While I agree that a lot of the safety techniques that are stressed here aren't for me: blade guard, splitter, etc. I would never criticize anyone else for using them or for suggesting that other people use them. If I tire of reading those posts, I read something else. One doesn't have to "wade through them". One can simply ignore them.

To me, the most telling and revealing post in this thread is Karl's statement: "But if you enjoy wasting time in the shop go for it. I hate it, have for a long time. I just do it for the paycheck, so anything that can save me time I'm going to do it, and instruct those under my employ to do so as well."

My guess is that the vast majority of people who visit this forum and who spend time in their shops don't hate it and don't consider their time spent in the shop as wasted time, even the extra time that some people spend to use all of the safety gadgets and features available. If a person hates what they do and are doing it only for a paycheck, well, what can I say? Furthermore, most people on the forums probably aren't doing it for a paycheck.

What I don't understand is why it would bother someone for other people to use whatever safety precautions and devices are at their disposal, should they decide to do so. I don't use them all, but it's no skin off my (pick your body part) if someone else does.

My advice to people who are reading this thread and who are concerned about proper use of the table saw: Use the good advice that Karl gives in his first post and ignore the bad advice. There's no reason whatsoever to not use a push stick when the conditions call for one. It's just common sense.

[Eric Larsen]

I run my saw with no guard and no splitter, although I'd like a decent splitter. My saw is of the "splitters and guards are useless" vintage.

But no push-shoe? No featherboard? Not a chance. I gotta have my push shoe and featherboard. Push sticks are basically worthless, in my opinion. I want something that holds the wood down as I push it forward. The first thing I made is a push shoe, and I'm going to make another one soon, because this one as seen "too much action" as it were.

As far as Karl's reasoning, I can see it. I can appreciate it. But what would Karl suggest to a newbie like me?

I bought a used PM66 because I couldn't afford a new SawStop. (Still can't.) There are no community college classes in my area. I don't have a veteran carpenter relative who can show me the ropes. I had to tune my equipment using only information that I found online. (Here, basically.)

I'm just a 40-something guy who needed a table saw to work on his new house. There are probably a lot more of guys like me here, than guys who have a family tradition of cabinet makers to teach them the trade.

Bottom line -- I do not fear my 5hp saw. If I had fear, I'd shell out the money to have a professional do the work. I respect the saw, and it's power. And I've learned what's safe, what isn't, and how to differentiate between the two.

I don't think the "safety first" crowd is wrong. But I think manuals were written with the assumption that we're all idiots. I agree with you on that point.

But these days, there's nobody around to tell even a newbie Sawstop owner to think twice about making that cut. Websites like SMC are all people like me have -- and I for one am happy I found this place.

[Jeremy Bryant]

I first would like to say hello to all on this site. I have been using wood working tools for 23 years. Only a couple of times did I personally have a kickback. Still got my 10 digits! I don't use a guard, splinter. I most certainly do use a push stick, push shoe when the time calls. Over the years I have seen 4 table saw accidents. All those resulted in less a full finger. Seen a guy jam his hand in a circular saw when the guard failed to come down and was switching from a bevel cut. That got 4 fingers. Most recent a "newbie cabinetmaker" was using a shaper and forgot to switch the direction of the bit. Went to feed and the board got thrown from his hands. Sadly he lost the tips of all 4 fingers in 1 swipe! Now, all these I can say were stupid mistakes. The main reason was not having the proper respect for these tools. The closer your little nubbies are to what is cutting the more at risk you are! I don't think one should ever discourage ones thought for safety.