What's up with Deals and Discounts?

[Barry Lyndon]

David, I can't believe you're even asking that question. Come on, man, we're talking about $6.00 per year to find out! That's less than 2 cents/day, brotha! Tell you what: if you can't afford the $6 then I'll pay it for you. Let me know.

No need to berate anyone who chooses to not contribute especially if they have legitimate concerns. David has just as much right to choose not to contribute money as the people running Sawmillcreek.org have the right to choose to charge money for any or all of the forum sections. I can actually understand David's concern in that restricting members from seeing/adding to the Deals and Discounts section will limit the number of deals posted to the forum. It makes sense. I, personally, *have* been disappointed in the decreased number of posts in the deals and discounts forum. I used to wake up every morning excited to check the forum for some good deal and now I hardly check that section at all. I guess there may be an argument made that the "quality" of the deals posted have gone up but I haven't really found that to be the case and really, shouldn't that be for each individual to decide? I don't really need someone to tell me that "deal A" isn't as great of a deal as "deal B". Maybe I'm not interested in "deal B" at all but have been thinking about "deal A" for a while now and just need that small discount to talk myself into buying the product.

Anyway, I personally don't have a problem contributing for the content on this site as I have gotten very valuable information from the great people here. But, that's *MY* decision, not anyone elses. Just thought I'd bring a little of the other side into this "argument". Your little "if you can't afford the $6 then I'll pay it for you." comment was just mean and uncalled for since he clearly states in his post that there is no financial reason that he can't contribute.

[Keith Westfall]

Cliff Holmes - No, you didn't. You already had that. But, despite what Jesse says, you people don't seem to get that.

So what do YOU want or need to justify the $6 cost then? If the information that is shared here isn't it, what do you think it should be?

It seems that because it is offered for free, it is not worth $6. So I am really curious as to what would be worth this vast amount of money investment in the 'Creek', in your opinion...

[scott vroom]

No need to berate anyone who chooses to not contribute especially if they have legitimate concerns. David has just as much right to choose not to contribute money as the people running Sawmillcreek.org have the right to choose to charge money for any or all of the forum sections. I can actually understand David's concern in that restricting members from seeing/adding to the Deals and Discounts section will limit the number of deals posted to the forum. It makes sense. I, personally, *have* been disappointed in the decreased number of posts in the deals and discounts forum. I used to wake up every morning excited to check the forum for some good deal and now I hardly check that section at all. I guess there may be an argument made that the "quality" of the deals posted have gone up but I haven't really found that to be the case and really, shouldn't that be for each individual to decide? I don't really need someone to tell me that "deal A" isn't as great of a deal as "deal B". Maybe I'm not interested in "deal B" at all but have been thinking about "deal A" for a while now and just need that small discount to talk myself into buying the product.

Anyway, I personally don't have a problem contributing for the content on this site as I have gotten very valuable information from the great people here. But, that's *MY* decision, not anyone elses. Just thought I'd bring a little of the other side into this "argument". Your little "if you can't afford the $6 then I'll pay it for you." comment was just mean and uncalled for since he clearly states in his post that there is no financial reason that he can't contribute.

My offer to pay was sincere. He seemed uncertain whether it is worth a 6 dollar investment to explore the deals section. I offered to remove the cost factor from his decision. I view it as a way to help SMC and at the same time help out a guy hung up on a 6 dollar decision. In hindsight my offer to pay sounded a bit flip, I guess I was having a giddy moment.

David, my apologies if I offended you. My offer to contribute $6 on your behalf stands.

[Jesse Wilson]

No, you didn't. You already had that. But, despite what Jesse says, you people don't seem to get that.

Yes, but the problem is that SMC has based a business on that. And it's a business model that's failing. SMC is doomed unless they find some other way to monetize this site.

Why do people give in church when the sermon and all the services are free? Why do people give to anything they aren't forced to... because they value the service and whether required to or not they take it upon themselves to give back to something that has given to them.

Nobody is here asking why every single member hasn't contributed yet. They are simply stating that in their opinion the services provided are worth the $6. It is still in the end john-Q-public's choice to pay or not. They may never decide to pay and that is fine because there is for now (and probably always will be) enough people willing to contribute to keep the forum going.


I really don't think the owners of the forum would call this their "business model" and I would hardly say that they are "failing". The have more then enough to cover the costs, upgrade their infrastructure and also provide high dollar giveaways.


They seem to be doing just fine even though people aren't being forced to "pay-to-play"....

[Dave Avery]

Why do people give in church when the sermon and all the services are free? Why do people give to anything they aren't forced to... because they value the service and whether required to or not they take it upon themselves to give back to something that has given to them.

Nobody is here asking why every single member hasn't contributed yet. They are simply stating that in their opinion the services provided are worth the $6. It is still in the end john-Q-public's choice to pay or not. They may never decide to pay and that is fine because there is for now (and probably always will be) enough people willing to contribute to keep the forum going.


I really don't think the owners of the forum would call this their "business model" and I would hardly say that they are "failing". The have more then enough to cover the costs, upgrade their infrastructure and also provide high dollar giveaways.


They seem to be doing just fine even though people aren't being forced to "pay-to-play"....

Very well said......

[Cliff Holmes]

Why do people give in church when the sermon and all the services are free?

The tithe is to honor God, not pay for services rendered.

Nobody is here asking why every single member hasn't contributed yet

No, not every single. And I never said they did. But there's a consistent theme that people should contribute. Maybe they should, but they won't and depending on them to do so for no tangible reward is not viable.

really don't think the owners of the forum would call this their "business model" and I would hardly say that they are "failing"

"In order for us to keep all of our woodworking forums open to everyone for free we need Advertisers and Contributors at this point." Sounds like it ain't working to me.

[Cliff Holmes]

It seems that because it is offered for free, it is not worth $6

No, once again you completely and totally misrepresent what I've said. Let me repeat: SMC provides forum access for free. For $6 a year, they offer additional services. It's those additional services that apparently many people don't feel are worth $6 a year.

[Chris Kennedy]

Against my better judgement, I'll step into this maelstrom again ...

I have a bit of a problem with this statement. It's a mistake to say that what SMC offers is worth paying the $6 a year. The fact is that you get X for nothing, for $6 you get X plus very little else. The incremental increase in features for the incremental cost is so small that most people will simply not see any value in it. They get everything they really want for free.

Also, keep in mind that 99.9% of the reason people come to SMC is not provided by SMC. The knowledge and help that make this place appealing are provided by the people visiting, not the people running it. Think about it, if SMC shuts down tomorrow morning, the exact same people will be doing the exact same stuff somewhere else by tomorrow afternoon. The fundamental problem is that SMC is not unique. The content isn't original, the people are not exclusive, the forum software is a commercial product. Its only differentiating factor vs other forums is its size and I don't see anything special here to account for that.

Against my better judgment, I will weigh in as well . . . .

My take on the contributor fee is that is what I pay to make certain that this forum exists tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after that. To me, SMC is much like PBS or NPR. I don't have to pay for it, but I would miss if it were gone. Its existence is what holds value for me, not the specific information that I get. If I have a question, I can post it and get a bunch of answers -- some very useful, some adequately useful, some not so useful, and some . . . well, you get the idea. But the point is that I get the answers and I know that they will be there. Every time, and every question. SMC doesn't provide the information, but it provides the forum to disseminate the information.

One of the fundamental rules of marketing is "don't blame the customer". If they don't want your product, calling them stupid isn't helping.

I would mention two things to this. The first is that the SMC leadership doesn't come out and harp on non-contributors. The mods and administrators will post messages, when the point comes up in public discussion, that if you feel you are deriving benefit then you should consider becoming a contributor.

That being said, there are definitely contributors who get hot under the collar when non-contributors complain about restrictions being placed on them. But let's keep this in perspective -- this isn't blaming the customer. That is exactly your point -- none of us are customers. We aren't paying for this information. The voluntary aspect of it makes it completely different.

I would bet that I came to this forum like many other people -- I had woodworking questions, and my search engine kept bringing me here. Could I what I find here in other forums? Maybe. The other forums I have delved into are like much of the net -- plenty of people trying to be helpful, and then a bunch of idjits spamming, trolling, and messing things up creating chaos for others. I know this forum will be civilized, and I will admit, I sometimes think the mods are a tad pro-active -- but I am willing to take that hit. To me, it is no different than say, a talk show host deciding what guest they will have. We are in their domain, and hence, their decisions rule. They pay the costs (and we voluntarily contribute) so they have the right to make the decisions.

To me, the six dollar annual fee is worth having a forum that doesn't devolve into flame wars, people remain civil, and because of that, it attracts an open and polite community -- be they contributors or not. I am willing to pony up for that. If others are not -- that's their call.

Cheers,

Chris

[Jesse Wilson]

The tithe is to honor God, not pay for services rendered.

So it has nothing to do with keeping their church running huh.....

What about freeware... many people donate money to the author of the program in respect to the time they spent on the service and the usefulness they drive out of the program.

There are many other examples of people giving of themselves without being required to whether receiving some sort of compensation from it or not.

No, not every single. And I never said they did. But there's a consistent theme that people should contribute. Maybe they should, but they won't and depending on them to do so for no tangible reward is not viable.

Of course people should... and people should all get along and people should obey traffic laws and people should love thy neighbor and people should not eat themselves obese ect.

To say "they wont" is a tad silly, I contributed for no tangible reward as did many other people here so obviously it is very viable. Viable enough that combined with the advertisers keep the forum alive and well.

"In order for us to keep all of our woodworking forums open to everyone for free we need Advertisers and Contributors at this point." Sounds like it ain't working to me.

Every forum not provided for solely by the owner of the forum depends on contributors and advertisers. I guess you missed the post stating that they had the money to upgrade the SMC servers, make a vbulletin upgrade, provide multiple generous giveaways, and provide almost all the SMC services free to those who wish to utilize it without contributing.

[David Prince]

The money is not the issue to me.

My question had more to do with needing the members to go forth and find deals and discounts and bring that back to the hive to share with others. Kinda like a bee hive or an ant colony. Now, restrict who comes and goes from the hive can and will definitely restrict how much comes back, correct?

SMC is entertainment to me. Just like reading a book, watching a movie, browsing the internet. Yes, there is useful information. I have asked questions and I have given advice. Entertainment! If I don't get my entertainment here, I could find it elsewhere. I don't mean that in a rude way by any means!

I am content to browse SMC and check things out. There may come a day that I will contribute my $6 or more, but today isn't the day. I can probably speak for other members that just want to continue to test out the waters and see what they think. Those members will too someday probably choose to pay their $6.

SMC is full of people that are at different phases of their membership at any given time. Some see the value right away and say "Hey, I gotta pay now because this is great" Others may say "I like the place and I think I might be a contributor someday, but it isn't today" and there might even be a few that say "I will never pay". To me there is nothing wrong with any of these folks, but SMC NEEDS all of those people to keep afloat. A private club will get stale after awhile. SMC needs those transitioning from member to contributor on a regular basis.

I do like the place and I might become a contributor some day, but getting back to my original thought, IMHO I think and am sorry to see that the deals and discounts probably has hit a brick wall that it will not recover from.

[Keith Outten]

Let me clear up a few issues that seem to be muddy at this point.

- Our business model at SawMill Creek is more of a goal not to lose money. Whether we make a profit or not isn't a big concern but I won't subsidize free access to our forums from the money I make in my sign shop.

- We are currently supporting not only Members access but Visitors as well. Lets not forget the percentage of our resources 100,000 Visitors consume. In all fairness Visitors are a big part of the equation that attracts advertisers so they aren't exactly free loading.

- Should we ever get to a point that we cannot support Visitors their access will be removed. This could also happen to Member access should our financial situation deteriorate to the point that we start to suffer a financial loss.

- Contributor access here has never been at risk and it is unlikely that it will ever happen. Should the time come when we are forced to move to a subscription based Forum we can quickly make the changes necessary to remain online. Our labor costs will drop to the point that they are not even a factor and we will end up with an incredibly fast server that is at an idle and we won't require any advertising support.

- What happens here next month or next year is controlled by this Community, not the owners or any particular group. I play the cards you deal providing a service based on the funding available, when funds decrease I have to decrease services, layoff people, etc. As long as I can meet the financial requirements to keep The Creek online I will do so but that requires Community support as much as mine.

- Concerning the FOTC giveaway on July Forth we provided half of the funds for the big prize. The money came from the people who registered for our FOTC Directory, not one dime came from the funds collected to support our Forums.

- FreeStuff drawings don't require any funds from SawMill Creek. The only cost is the time I spend coordinating prizes with vendors and I donate my personal time to support FreeStuff Drawings.

- We are not in any financial trouble right now. We are holding our own but that is due to our Marketing efforts and your support combined. As long as we work together we move forward.

- In September of 2005 I made an announcement here that we were shutting down because our business was closing its doors. In huge numbers the members of this Community asked Jackie and I to find a way to keep SawMill Creek alive. A considerable amount of money was collected in 24 hours which proved to me the people here were serious about our survival so here we are today. After ten years of running an online service Jackie and I were relieved at the thought of not ever having the burden of being responsible for anything that ran 24 hours per day 365 days per year. Because you asked us and you were willing to step up and provide your support we reversed our decision and we signed legal contracts that were required for us to continue. We modified our sign business to incorporate SawMill Creek as a division of our company........I could go on and on. Any time you guys and girls are ready for The Creek to end you just let me know and I will pull the plug in 60 seconds and go back to my workshop and make signs or I would be glad to continue to support our Contributors by converting The Creek to a subscription based forum.

IMO Members should never complain about what they receive for free!

I have a great day job working for the state and my sign company produces income equal to the number of hours I am willing to spend in my shop. At 59 years of age I am debt free, paid my home off when I was 40 years old and both my children are grown. I work here because you asked me to, not because I need the money.
In a nutshell I am willing to keep pedaling here as long as you steer.

Whenever I get on my soapbox I like to close by thanking all of our Contributors for their support through the years we have been online. We have not accomplished one thing that would have been possible without you and I value your support and your friendship. When you can take the time from your schedule to make a donation here it justifies the time we spend behind the scenes which is worth more to us than the donation you make.

[Ron Crosby]

Oh, I get it now.
It's all about money. How American. lol

[Keith Westfall]

My question had more to do with needing the members to go forth and find deals and discounts and bring that back to the hive to share with others. Kinda like a bee hive or an ant colony. Now, restrict who comes and goes from the hive can and will definitely restrict how much comes back, correct?

So what we should have is a FREE forum, that will scour the internet and find you the best deals so one can then pick and choose the best way to save money and get the best deal...???

Probably a big line of people just waiting to start that kind of a project!

Whenever I get on my soapbox I like to close by thanking all of our Contributors for their support...

Keith,

When I found this site, I poked around for a while because of the wealth of information. Then when I found out that for $6/year I could do my part to support it, I set up a $2/month pay pal figuring it was well worth that.

Then when I found that I could have a very good chance (1 of 50 something!) of winning the CNC machine for a measly $50 it was a no brainer! And though I didn't win (am still a bit disappointed about that) my $50 FOTC will stand as long as you continue to provide the excellent forum and a way to share so much good information.

Good on you, and those of us who do appreciate it and know there is value at the "Creek", say thanks. Easily worth the price of admission that I choose to contribute.

Keith W.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Oh, I get it now.
It's all about money. How American. lol

Too many people have misinformed idea that the Internet is free. There is nothing in life that is free. Somebody has to pay the bills.

Keith and his wife already had one business go bankrupt because that business was the sole financial support of Saw Mill Creek. When he and Jackie were ready to sell the Creek or let it fold, one of the other Moderators started a fund raising thread. The idea of it being financed by appreciative "members" was born and the label "Contributors" was given to those who contribute to the financial support of the Creek.

We don't verbally abuse people or think any less if they don't, won't or can't afford to contribute the $6 per year that is recommended. In some cases where the unpaid staff of Administrators and Moderators have become aware of financial difficulties of Members, we have offered to pay and often Keith has generously given them the status of Contributor so they could have the full benefits of a Contributor.

The point is, however, as Keith is not willing to face a huge financial loss again to support the Creek. He and his wife have paid and played that game once and won't do it again.

It's easy to be a critic on the Internet or to have what I refer to as Keyboard Bravery. There are a lot of people who proclaim their expertise, criticize and or attack organizations or in this case, the owners/administrators and the methods of operation of the Creek. A lot of folks have theories that are unproven or differ but they voice them, criticize and rain on other peoples parades.If those who have those ideas are so assured of their validity and potential, I invite them to start their own Website and come back in 10 years and let us know how it is surviving.

The Creek is what it is because of Keith's and Jackie's commitment to it both financially and through their unpaid labors over the years. Contrary to a certain group who claim that this website is supported by one of their competitors, the Moderators here are all invited, unpaid volunteers . Speaking for myself, I found the Creek when I started my shop. I have learned an immeasurable amount and made numerous friends. We donate our time to keep the Creek what it was and is..... a place where beginners to pros can come to exchange information about a common subject of woodworking and related topics, share a little of our lives, make a few friends, have a good time and do it in a civil manner.

After losing one business as a result of being the sole financial support the Creek and all of the hours they have worked in the past years, if Jackie and Keith make money at it......so what? It is privately owned....it bankrupted one of their businesses. I wouldn't fault them for making a profit. I am in awe of their generosity. The servers for the Creek reside in Keith's shop. This is very similar to being a dairy farmer. You don't take vacations because the responsibilities are there 24x7 x 365 days a year.

So yeah....it is about money......

[Ron Crosby]

A wealth of information here for only $6/year. If anything, I sometimes feel guilty for the low price of admission!

Ok, that's how you feel, maybe you think this is the only place on the web for woodworking stuff?

Thing is, there's loads of other sites with contributing message boards that are also a wealth of info and don't cost a penny to the poster. The internet is huge!