starting a wood shop & looking for advice

[Ray Newman]

Jed: from your post, it seems that you setting up a commercial wood shop? If so, I wish you the best considering this economy.

My question is have you given any thought to or researched the cost of liability and worker’s compensation premiums if you had a Saw Stop in the shop? If you have thought of this, I would be interested in reading what you found out.

From what I read on-line and in magazines and hear, seems that Saw Stop is selling its products through the liability, lawsuit, insurance premium approach. On other wood working boards, I read threads where woodworkers purchased used Powermatic or Unisaw from a school or business because increased insurance premiums.

Your shop may be a one-man operation. But ‘gawd’ forbid that you ever injure self, can you afford to be out of work until you can fully return to work? Same with a helper or employee. You may not hire one full-time but there could be a time when temporary help is needed for a big job or to meet a timeline. I’ve know a few guys who were injured on the job and they always started looking for the money no matter who was at fault. Witness the recent court case in MA where the employee did everything wrong while operating a portable TS to cut flooring and still prevailed in court.

Myself, I like the concept of the Saw Stop product, but dislike the approach to marketing it. But given today’s lawsuit tendencies, I understand why insurance carriers and worker’s compensation agencies are pushing woodworkers to the Saw Stop via insurance rates.

[Dewayne Reding]

20" planer. I have the 15" Griz in my garage, not unpacked yet and I already know there will be days I wish I had another $500 to spend on a 20", but I am just playing so I'll get over it. Regarding insurance liability.... I would inquire whether certain tools with certain safety features affect the premiums. (As Ray suggested already) That could be a huge issue. I don't own a Sawstop, but I sure would if I was going to pay for it over and over anyway through increased insurance premiums. (Please don't let that comment ruin Jed's thread).

[Paul DeCarlo]

Jed,
A big air compressor that will power nailers & staplers as well as a spray gun is a must. What about all the hand held power tools you'll need?
I would set aside $$ for all the tooling that goes along with all the equipment. It is amazing how much you can spend on blades(for everything), bits(router&drill), staples, nails, screws, glue, sandpaper(belt,disc,hand), finishing supplies, solvents, benches, work tables, carts, shelving, masking tape, sharpening service, office supplies, etc.....
I've barely scratched the surface.
Also, think very hard about marketing; advertisements, printing, mailings, website.......I agree with another poster, the big tools are the easiest thing to buy.

-Paul

[Mark Bolton]

A lot of great info here and with all thats been talked I would say its probably hard for anyone to give you recommendations without many of the questions that have been asked being answered, like:

Have you been doing this long?
Do you have clients / customers lined up?
Commercial? Wholesale? Retail? One offs?
What type of work? "built-in's" doesn't give you much to go on with tools like drill presses and band saws.

and many more.

We have a small custom shop that we run in conjunction with a contracting business so we are often our own client which helps tremendously as we had a known base and well established demand. Additionally we have been in the business for many years and had a very good handle on what tooling would be best for us. That said, I am in the middle of much of the advice given by Steve and Johnny. We use our shaper almost daily but we run a lot of trim and millwork. I cant tell you the last time I flipped the switch on the band saw, it just collects dust. Drill presses, we have three in the shop (one of my vices) but they very rarely get used other than when I am fixing something non-wood related.

I too would say to ditch the cabinet saw and go for a panel saw. It is absolutely the only way to go in a shop that moves any quantity of sheet goods or process any amount of rough or surfaced lumber. Our panel saw is simply the best shop investment we have ever made. That and the shaper (for us).

With regards to new vs. used all I would say is you have to very seriously consider your chances of success with this business. I think if you read back over many old posts here and at woodweb you will find that the vast majority of people in the business will tell you you should have your head examined. Its not an easy business to be in by any means. And as another reply stated, this economy is no bonus though your location will play a part.

If you have an endless budget by all means buy new and blow the wad. If however you are on any sort of a budget or are on any sort of fuzzy ground with how your first few years are going to go (who wouldnt be), then it may be smart to reduce your startup costs on a few tools to save you a few bucks. We have had good luck with some used tools but most of our tools are new purchases. Its nice to buy new but its also nice to keep a buffer held back incase things dont take off the way you planned.

Depending on whether you take any of the advice here, your tool budget is going to go up as almost every recommendation even pertaining to the tools you listed is an upgrade. Moving to more commercial tools will likely require dumping some tools to allow for the higher expense i.e. bandsaw and drill press help offset the cost of the slider, and so on.

Would be interesting to hear a bit more about your plans...

Good Luck,
Mark

[Mike Sayre]

Jed, I am in the same shoes you are i think.But if i understand you correctly you are going in this for a business and i was only going into it to make me stuff,family stuff,and for a hobby and maybe one day i could make money selling to a few people not around the world like most i suspect in here do..But recently i sat back went to grizzlys and picked out a complete list of there tools mostly polar bear series (was it the color,or the design) not sure just liked to have all one brand tools in my shop same color...Seems simple to me..But after reading all the Professionals in here everyone had one thing they liked and others said different...For now i am lost on what i want to do and have put my shop that i was getting ready to start ground work on hold..Maybe for 6 months to a year or 2 until i see how others getting there shops together or other design in grizzlys tools don't really know...But please do post anything you get ,works on them,and pics if you can...And good luck on your future shop....Mike

[Mark Bolton]

not sure just liked to have all one brand tools in my shop same color...Seems simple to me..But after reading all the Professionals in here everyone had one thing they liked and others said different...

When we set this shop up I was very tempted, just for the simplicity factor, to just order a package deal or pick from a single suppliers catalog to simplify things. I didnt look at grizzly but I dont like their tools. With the chaos of everything else that was going on with setting up a commercial space I thought it would be no big deal to simply package everything knowing I would likely have to "make due" with some of the tools.

In hind sight I am so glad I didn't go that route for the very reasons you mention. There are just some tools that you want/like from one manufacturer and not another. I think that all one tool thing may look all neet and slick in a picture but its simply not practical, at least for us, in the real world.

When push came to shove, we actually only purchase a fraction of the tools we had thought about initially which was also a good thing. It lets you add tooling as *needed* rather than what you are anticipating you will need.

Its the American mindset now to one-stop-shop, and I am sure the mfr's love it, but it ain't my choice.

Mark

[jed piatt]

wow, thanks guys! that is a lot of information to digest. as for sheet goods I want to eventually have a standing panel saw. right now Ill use my festool track saw to bring the sheet to a reasonable size (I use the fes system alot on site to build custom paint grade builtins). Im planing on milling alot of stain grade from 8/4 rough stock depending on the scope of a project. so im hoping that the 15" planer, band saw, and jointer will be sufficient. to flatten stock after glue up I was looking at saving up for a 36" drum sander.

there are a lot of historic districts in the area I live, this leads to there being a need for matching trim work. I want to eventually have a few moulders, but decided to start with the shaper. ( shaper being more versatile?)

Im working with a few local business men to get a handle on all this paper work stuff.

you all brought up great points, keep posting andill try to soak it all in!

[Mark Bolton]

If your doing a lot of reproduction molding work you may want to look into a W&H type machine instead of the shaper. As has been mentioned already shaper tooling can get pretty pricey. You want to remember if you go the shaper route a feeder is an absolute must.

Mark

[jed piatt]

Yes definatly looking @ W&H moulders. I like the idea of the shaper for rail & stile, cope & stick, and paneling set ups. add to that an interchangable moulding head.

?????????

[Mark Bolton]

Yes definatly looking @ W&H moulders. I like the idea of the shaper for rail & stile, cope & stick, and paneling set ups. add to that an interchangable moulding head.

?????????

We have both, and they both have their advantages. I am not sure that I can say each does what the other does better. Of course cope & stick is not an option on the W&H.

I can say that I feel more comfortable having a less experienced person feeding through the W&H than I do the shaper.

Mark

[Karl Brogger]

My advice? Have you been watching the news lately? People ain't spending money right now.... I'd look into different things, mainly being working for someone else.

I've been doing wood working for 13 years now. 1-1/2 doing plastic laminate countertops, the rest as a cabinetmaker. Almost seven years on my own.

Buy new what you can, but don't be set on buying new stuff. I made this mistake when I started on my own in early 2004 and for budgetary reasons it created a lot of obstacles. Yeah, new stuff is nice, but money goes really quickly doing that. You've got a budget of $6500, and to be completely honest that won't get you very far. You've got a extremely large amount of crap to buy. There are plenty of deals out there on used equipment, it takes some time, and some patience but its out there. I got some absolute steals the past few years. I know I'll catch hell for this, but while Grizzly may have gotten a heck of a lot better than they were, its still garbage in my opinion. Around here you don't see too much in a commercial setting. I also view most of the newer equipment to be not up to spec in the quality department with what was being produced ten or fifteen years ago. Almost all of the Powermatic equipment that I had purchased new, or built recently has been a disappointment to some degree.

I spent $2500 on dust collection for my new shop. That was just pipe and gates. Something to keep in mind.

DO NOT GO IN DEBT FOR EQUIPMENT! This is what folded so many shops. Work slows down, and all of the sudden you can't make the payments. For many it is a gamble that did not pay. I also do not see the benefit to leasing equipment.

You don't have anything listed for boring hinge cups. I think I paid $1700 for my Blum mini press new, used ones are out there. There are also other options, but the press from the hinge manufacture does pay for itself in a fairly short amount of time.

Renting is not cheap. My new shop costs about $17k a year just to have somewhere to work. I had my shop in some space that I rented from family when I started. I could not have done it with out keeping my overhead as low as possible. It scares the crap out of me having that kind of costs per month now. Plus I think my liability insurance, insurance on the tools, and something to cover product en-route costs me another $1800 per year. (I think)

You don't have to worry about employee's for a while, or the associated costs. You won't have enough equipment to keep more than two hands occupied. But, you will be working plenty of hours to make up for it.

I would incorporate. Buy your tools personally then rent/lease them to the company. Most of my company's tools are rented from me personally. The key benefit here being that what you make from rent is unearned income, and you do not have to pay the 15.3% Medicare/S.S. taxes on it. Some states general contractors will not do business with a sole proprietor anymore.

Keep as much cash available as possible. When a deal comes along, missing it can be more costly than not. I went frickin' broke buying up used stuff when things really fell apart a few years ago. When you have a lean spell, (it'll happen, trust me), you still need to pay for your space if renting from someone other than am extremely understanding family member.

Don't worry about making doors right off the bat. You can't afford the equipment at this point to make it profitable anyway. Don't bother with a drum sander, save your pennies and pick up a decent used widebelt.

I personally hate sliding tablesaws, with one caveat. If you have an over head panel lift to load the thing they aren't bad for knocking out sheet stock. A good vertical panel-saw, (Striebig, Holz-Herr, etc.) can rip and crosscut multiple sheets at one time, don't take up as much square footage, extremely safe, easy to use, and plenty accurate when cared for. Busting up sheets on a regular tablesaw does suck, but so does constantly changing the shop vs making additions to the shop.

You need to establish what kind of market you want to be in. Who are your cliental? When I started my shop, I didn't want to be slugging it out with the bottom of the gene pool. Around here the majority of the shops are using Melamine, I use plywood. Melamine drawers w/ epoxy slides, I do birch or cherry dovetails with under-mount slides. I don't get too many customers that shop the box cabinet world. I build as good a quality product as I can, and am constantly trying to improve upon that. While I may be expensive as hell, I perceive my cabinetry to be a good value.

Bid what you need to get for a job. There's no justification to working for free. You can sit on the couch and not make money, no reason going into the shop and suck up dust to do it. Starting out you are in no position to try and take down the "other guy". But, you do need to get your name out there. Its a tricky balance I guess when starting out. I don't adjust pricing for anything. I know my costs, what I need to make off of a job, and I try to maintain an image of being higher end.

Never, ever talk down the competition. Point out what makes your product superior when dealing with potential customers.

Reinvest as much as possible back into the business. It lowers your tax liability, and hopefully makes you more money.


I started off by telling you to do something else. With that said, if you can make it work in a crap housing market, when things come back around you will be sitting pretty. Self employment has its benefits, and its drawbacks. I don't play well with others, so its the best avenue for me. You will work some horrendous hours. You will be making next to nothing for a while. Heck, I think I'm doing okay, and I still probably make less per hour than my last job working for someone else. There's been plenty of late nights at the shop, or late nights at the computer doing drawings, and bidding. Plus traveling to measure or meet with customers eats up an enormous amount of time.

Some days the juice is worth the squeeze, some days all you want to do is pull the plug.


I wish you good luck.

[Mark Woodmark]

I would opt for a combo planer/ jointer. You could save some space and money. I have a shaper and rarely use it. Maybe if you intend to do frame and panel doors, it would pay for itself. You could go with a router table instead. It wont completely replace the shaper, but it may get done what you want it to. I would think about a drum sander and a combo disc/ belt sander.....especially the disc/ belt sander. I use mine all the time for all kinds of sanding chores. Have you thought about hand tools? What about clamps? These can be a major investment and you never seem to have enough

[Mark Bolton]

Self employment has its benefits, and its drawbacks. I don't play well with others, so its the best avenue for me. You will work some horrendous hours. You will be making next to nothing for a while. Heck, I think I'm doing okay, and I still probably make less per hour than my last job working for someone else. There's been plenty of late nights at the shop, or late nights at the computer doing drawings, and bidding. Plus traveling to measure or meet with customers eats up an enormous amount of time.

Some days the juice is worth the squeeze, some days all you want to do is pull the plug.

Every time I read one of these that resonates so clearly with me I don't know whether to be sad or feel comforted LOL.

Mark

[Andrew Joiner]

wow, thanks guys! that is a lot of information to digest. as for sheet goods I want to eventually have a standing panel saw. right now Ill use my festool track saw to bring the sheet to a reasonable size (I use the fes system alot on site to build custom paint grade builtins). Im planing on milling alot of stain grade from 8/4 rough stock depending on the scope of a project. so im hoping that the 15" planer, band saw, and jointer will be sufficient. to flatten stock after glue up I was looking at saving up for a 36" drum sander.

there are a lot of historic districts in the area I live, this leads to there being a need for matching trim work. I want to eventually have a few moulders, but decided to start with the shaper. ( shaper being more versatile?)

Im working with a few local business men to get a handle on all this paper work stuff.

you all brought up great points, keep posting andill try to soak it all in!

So that's good Jed, you already have been getting some work so you aren't "starting from scratch".

Here is what I did. I did my first" woodworking for pay" in the early 60's with the cheapest minimal tools I could get in my home based shop. A Sears radial arm saw was the heart of my shop. I ripped on it and cut up 4x8 sheets by myself. For a couple years I made store fixtures and custom furniture at home at night, while I worked jobs in 2 different big cabinet shops.

This was the most valuable experience I had. Working with pro's and bosses that said" this is the way we do it". Many times I'd say wouldn't it be faster to do it this way? To be met with "just do it the way we've always done it". I found out the only way my ideas would prove to work was testing them in my home shop.

Having learned a lot working at other shops I bought a new Safety Speed Cut vertical panel saw. What a dream saw for one teenage cabinetmaker too cut up panels with all night!

In 1969 got a big job making office furniture so I quit my day job.
Eventually the motor parts on my Sears radial arm saw melted because I pushed it so hard. The saw was paid for many times over from all the hard work I asked it to do. I needed a saw. At the time the Delta unisaw was the heart of every cabinet shop. I took a big risk and bought the new kid on the block a new Powermatic 66. It paid for itself many times over, including having to replace 2 motors from all the hard work I asked IT to do.

My repeating theme is don't buy it till you really need it and even top of the line machines can be topped. They all wear out if you use them.

Buy new, buy used if you have time, but there will always be a tool in glossy image that looks like it will do a better job. I have had good luck with Grizzly tools in my retirement hobby shop. I know I could make money with them if I wanted to work hard.

Many businesses fail because they started to big with expensive new equipment that wasn't really needed to get the job done. Stay lean and mean and you can move up faster with less risk.

[Greg Peterson]

Buying used is a great way to go. However, it is inconvenient and cumbersome. Wait for the tool I need to show up and then try to buy it. Then I usually have to do some work to get it 100% operational.

As a hobbiest, I can justify the trials of buying used tool.

If I were trying to run a business, especially new business, the last thing I would want to manage is tool acquisition, setup and repairs. New at least provides the expectation that you will be able to focus your energies in productive endeavors.

Sheet goods are a real pain for me on my table saw. Breaking them down, squaring them up is a time consuming task. I would think a slider would be money well spent.

The band saw and drill press may not be necessary, or at the least you can find less expensive solutions.

As was pointed out with the shaper, unless you plan on lots of BF of custom profiled moldings, the hidden cost of the shaper may be a hindrance.

You don't mention bits, blades, clamps, bench tools and all the other little things required in virtually any shop. I assume these are already accounted for.