Contributor
Zero experience with Festool. My Fein T-III is 7 yrs old or so. Love it. Use it for general clean up, but the main purpose is via hose to ROS, hand-held routers, belt sanders, etc. Collection of fine ROS sanding dust is outstanding - I have a 12-yr-old 5" PC ROS.
The one mistake I made when I bought it was corrected within 3 months - I spent the $$ to get the accessories to let me use the disposable bags. There must be some level of hell reserved for emptying fine sanding dust out of shop vacs.
When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.
Member
Maybe it's just the uber-efficient dust collection of the Festool sanders, but they don't work so great at full suck - work much better with a lower suction level.
JT
Member
Virtually all shop vacs have a separate cooling fan, from the cheapest made in China to the other German made vacs.Originally Posted by Charles McKinley
This is misleading (just like the Fein lets you believe they are the only ones that have separate cooling fans). Just use your head for a second, the vac isn't going to run at one amp! Even the new variable speed Fein vacs will draw more than one amp at the lowest setting.
Member
Fein vacuums are quiet, well made, and lack the ease of expanding their usage in a shop or commercial setting the way the Festool systems work. I don't get this, after all Fein has been around, with a stellar product for a long time. But, there it is. If you want just a vacuum, and a really good one, get the Fein. I STILL expect them to change the shape of their vacuums to catch up to Festool with machine/tool usage or storage systems, but they haven't decided to do that so far.
Festool, I've owned my CT-22 since 2004. As others have posted, you can't underestimate what a game changer its different design is. As per usual European "System" design, it intergrates your method of working, and allows you to changes things up with either bought or user made upgrades. Hard to do that with the Fein since it's a stand alone unit with the taper shape. Having a flat top is just one part of the design. Like the Fein, they're much quieter than an vac that you're used to. They roll around a shop just fine, but aren't equipped with 5" casters at all 4 wheels, so don't expect to shoot over an air hose or ext. cord without moving it out of the way.....
Aftermarket people and owners design items to lock onto the top of Festool Vacs, not just Festool, so there's more support and reworking going on if you're interested in that. It's a world of its own, just research what's out there on this. Pretty amazing.
The vacs will handle anything that's normally thrown at them, esp if you work a 2 stage dust collection system via a mini cyclone as your method of collecting dust. I use my CT-22 and Oneida Ultimate DD to do everything in sanding size from my 8" Clarke Drum Floor Sander down to my smallest detail sander. You can't, of course, plug too large of a machine into the Auto Outlet, so you need a sep. circuit for anything like my Floor sander, but the main point is that you can grow beyond a simple sander hooked up to these vacs since everyone is out there exploring ways to modify their Festool system once they live with one for awhile. They sort of inspire people to get creative. You'll learn how to control the finish on the wood surface you're dealing with just by playing with the suction level of the vacuum, and not the pressure you're putting on the tool or the speed you've got it set at. Variable suction also helps for ceiling work, as you can increase the suction level of the sander you're struggling to keep over your head. Fein vacuums now also have variable speed settings, the older ones didn't at some point. Either vac will improve your work since you're not only keeping dust at bay, you're also keeping it out of the abrasive you're running on the tool, which stretches the life of the paper, and keeps unwanted erratic scratches down from grit getting loaded into the wrong place while you're sanding.
If you never use it for more than simple dust collector hooked up to a tool, that's OK too. It WAS designed to work well for that task. The stock hose is usually the 27mm hose, available in either Anti-Static or regular. Most people opt for AS, and those are the infamous green hoses you'll see. This is the usual go-to hose for most people unless dealing with chips.
You can still do clean-up work with it, but getting a 36mm hose is a better way to go to avoid clogs.
Next hose size up is the 36mm, used for general dust collection or clean-up like a reg shop vac since it's very close to size for a 1 1/2" hose in the States. Miter saws, track saws with adapters, or some routing with the dust port attached are some common tool usages here where the larger diameter helps with chips instead of just fine dust.
50mm hose, the big one. Good for feeding a smaller hose that's far enough way from the vacuum if you're worried about dust collection at the end. Also used for even larger chip collection for tools that will possibly overload the smaller 36mm hose.
There are a variety of fittings to expand the hoses, join them, split them with a Y, or reduce to fit some one's other hose or dust port. Also available as anti-static usually. Festool also sells cleaning kits, in several sizes for the different hoses or your particular needs. Instead of "borrowing" the tools from the house vacuum, you can keep a handy systainer full of attachments to use in your dirty shop or a job site. Keeps the peace in many homes where the "borrowing" is frowned on........
Boom-Arms, hose holders, Work Centers that mount on top of the vacuum. The list goes on and on. All of these accessories are designed to change or help the way you work. Research them, study them, see peoples home-made copies of them. You'll soon understand how one persons design leads to someone else's mod, which leads to another posted modification, etc. You don't get that with buying a Fein Vacuum.
Storage Systems, the infamous Systainer, the Sortainer, ETC. All those pricey plastic boxes that come with either tools in them, storage boxes or inserts for someone elses tools in them, First Aid Kits, Domino Tenons, etc, and also stack AND lock onto one another for ease of storage and transportation. Research these as well. You can buy ANY vacuum, and end up buying Systainers or Sortainers[the pull-out drawer version of the sys] at some point in the future as they are world unto themselves and are kind of a slippery slope once you start buying them. And if you thought people modified their Festool Vacs, brother, you ain't seen nothing yet when it comes to creativity of modifying these plastic boxes.
You can make or buy simple 4 wheel dollys to house your tower of systainers in your shop or job site. You can stack them 8 to 10 high on the vacs and still roll the vacuum around easily. The vacs actually have a weight rating for storage on them since they're designed with this purpose in mind.
Cons-yep, there are a few. Pricey to start with, the consumables like filters and bags aren't cheap,but they're high quality and some are designed to be cleaned and reused, not just tossed. The power outlet, mentioned for mine vac and other older models. They get sloppy with age and heavy usage. After using mine pretty well since 2004, I'm now due for one. A day to day contractor will eat one up faster, but they've started using a 3 way tap, plugged into a fresh , new outlet, as a way of not needing to pull the tools plug out of the outlet all the time. Don't know if the new CT-26 and 36, and really big 48 models have addressed this. Festool also has been sending people free outlets for their vacs if they're needed, well after the warranty is expired.
They're still only single stage vacs, so if you really put out dust, get a mini cyclone to catch the maximum amount of chips/dust in the cyclones collection box or bucket so you save money and space on your bag inside the vacuum.
This was long winded, I know, but once you go Festool, you'll enter a world unto itself. If nothing else, venture into a shop that's using them in the ways that I described to see the possibilities. Kind of mind blowing at times.
Last edited by Callan Campbell; 04-15-2011 at 9:49 AM. Reason: add-on info
Member
I agree with Callan about all the add on accessories Festool offers. Also, the built in hose/cord storage is great for people like me that move the vac regularly. Festool has stepped up their game with the new CT 26, 36 and 48 models.
Well, I believe the Festool vacs are two stage filtering with their per-filter bags.
Member
Interesting, I hadn't thought of it that way. Sorry for the misinformation.
[OP]
Member
I'm actually sort of scared to go into the festool world for that reason...first a rotex and CT26 HEPA, boom arm, handles, ultimate dust deputy, kapex, MKT, CS 55, and the routers! With that money, I can fund a small humanitarian missions trip in Cambodia!
That being said, the festool line up and design is very, very lustworthy.
They're well designed, hold value well, and most serious woodworkers swear by them.
However, my pocketbook seems to vote for the fein.
I'll drop by Japan woodworker this afternoon and check it out.
Member
Brice - what the heck are you even talking about here? I was simply referring to the rating specs for the tool outlet on the vac. This is not marketing speak, it's printed on the outlets of both vacs. The Fein's apparently have wiring and socket assemblies that are rated for higher amperage loads.
Don't worry, I wasn't disparaging the prestigious Festool name.
Julian
Member
He's talking about the fact that if you plug the vac into a 20A outlet, you can't draw 19A (for very long anyway) off that receptacle because the vac motor is drawing several amps itself. The receptacle might be rated at 19A but the overall system can't support it.
When I was buying mine I recall reading that the Festool rating was based on the draw of the vac itself. The socket was rated much higher. Its actually less than the 10.something if you are using the pigtail that lets you plug it into a 15A receptacle.
Last edited by Matt Meiser; 04-15-2011 at 4:56 PM.
Member
Peter and anyone else considering the DeWalt vac - be aware that the triggered tool socket has a MAXIMUM Amp rating of 5, and that's on low vacuum power.
This means that you cannot use a router or a track saw and even some sanders connected to the trigger socket or you'll blow the fuse or board - I'm not sure what's in it now. It's pretty much a palm sander in the -4 amp range only and a biscuit jointer. The Fein and Festool do not have this low restriction.
This is a newly shod version of PorterCable's drywall sander vac and it's not as powerful as either the Fein or Festool in regard to CFM and Water Lift. I have both a Festool and the PC, and had a Fein II for a while and the DW/PC is nowhere near as good as either. Not a bad package , but not really in the same league. At $400 + I think it a tad over priced too.
Member
Julian, you're just repeating the misleading info the Fein is pushing. Yes you can run a 19 amp tool on the Fein without the vac itself turned on. This is where the Festool and Fein are different, the Festool vac's outlet can't be used with the vac off. This means they have to rate the outlet for 10 amps (since the vac can draw 10 amps also) to get UL approval. The outlet on the Fein can used without on so they can rate the outlet for higher amps. I know for a fact you can draw more that 10 amps while running the Festool vac. If you turn down the variable speed on the Festool vac and newer Feins you can drawer higher amps. I don't know if the Fein vacs has a soft start but the Festool vacs do. I know I've pushed pretty hard with my OF2200 router with a 3 1/4" raised panel bit plugged into my CT 26 vac before eventually tripping a 20 amp breaker. You know the router with that bit was drawing more than 10 amps.
My point is Julian's outlet rating comment is misleading until you put into context. He made his comment as if there was some advantage of having a label that states a higher rated outlet. In reality there is no functional difference between the outlets on either brand with the vac running.
Member
I can tell you in the real world that it is difficult to exceed the outlet capacity on the Fein vacs. Obviously, Callan trying to run a drum floor sander through the triggering outlet is beyond the design spec since that tool probably required a dedicated outlet for itself. I have used mine with 11 and 13amp rotary hammers drilling big holes through thick concrete. One job required drilling 4" holes through a 16" thick wall so the tool and Fein vac were running most of the time for hours. The limiting factor was three young guys drilling in rotation, not the vacuum. I would say that I am thrilled with the quality of Fein vacuums over the 20 years that I have used them. I am still using the 20 year-old one in a business.
That is not to say that every job needs an expensive vacuum. I currently own about a dozen "shop vacs" for business and personal use. These range from my new Fein HEPA Turbo II to a $20 "bucket boss" vac from the BORG. When I needed a general shop vac to use at home, I didn't think I needed to spend the money for a Fein. I bought a $120 Ridgid and when it turned out to be a POS, it went to a plant that will kill a shop vac in a month or two. After it died in a few weeks, HD replaced it. After that one died in a couple months, the warranty was voided. For home, I replaced it with the best stainless steel Shop Vac from Lowes at $179. That was a waste of more money. After using that for awhile, I realized that the Fein was worth the money even for homeowner use and bought a Turbo III for home. What a difference! I guess you have to use the Ridgid, Shop Vac, Craftsman, etc junk to realize that a good shop vac is worth the money.
I do think that Fein has fallen behind Festool as a "system". If I had to haul a vac around with tools or benefitted from the flat top to use for a Dust Deputy or systainers, I would consider Festool vacs. The square shape, hose storage, boom arm, etc. are advantages if they fit what you need. They are more money but mostly because you can find a discount on Fein but not on Festool. My local tool dealer puts virtually everything, including Fein, on sale for a weekend at 20% off in the spring and fall. Next event is in two weeks if anyone is local to me and wants a Turbo III for about $345. I paid $378 for my HEPA Turbo II, which makes it around $200 less than the Festool equivalent. I found the $70 non-antistatic 16.5' Festool hose the perfect solution to use a Festool sander attached to Fein vac. Plenty of suction even if you use that in addition to the 10' big Fein hose.
Also, Fein is conservative on their performance specs. The CFM is the same or better than the big shop vacs from the BORG. It just doesn't seem like it at first since the Fein is quiet! Anyone want a $179 Stanless Steel Shop Vac that only filled one filter bag before I send it down to a factory that will kill it in a month or two?
Just kidding, if you really want a decent vac, buy a Fein or Festool. If you need something cheaper, get the Porter Cable or Dewalt version that appears on blow out at around $200 fairly regularly. If you want junk, there are lots of options. Perhaps junk is adequate for your needs like the $69 Ridgid I have attached to a grinder that gets used an hour or two a month. Just don't mistake that for a real tool.
Member
We have 2 Feins:
Mini-Turbo bought ~ 2004 when building our house (became our house vacuum; and Turbo 1 bought last year that has variable suction and tool / electtric outlet.
I buy the generic drywall bags to extend the life of the $40 Fein canister shape filter. Not sure if the festool can accept those.
Only annoying aspect is that the floor extension tubes don't lock together. I remember my dad had a Craftsman vac that featured locking tubes.
Contributor
I have the Festool Mini vac, which I purchased along with their 6" orbital sander. I've always found the vacuum to be sort of weak, though it is quiet and the tool actuation is of course a necessity. I find myself using a similarly sized Rigid for general vacuuming duties because it's more portable and stronger. I use the Festool for dust collection with handheld power tools.
I've always been curious if anyone else had the same experience with their Festool vac seeming feeble, that is to say unable to suck a lot and with any authority. Is it just because it's the Mini and not a larger model?
Member
Dave, I paid $219 for the DeWalt. At that price it's a good value. But that is with the std 2 micron filter. With the optional HEPA filter and fleece bag it's close to the Festool, and the Festool is better at that price, no doubt.
I have both the Festool and the DeWalt, and have used both, and the performance difference that appears on printed specs doesn't mean much to me because in the shop the DeWalt picks up every bit as much as the Festool. I have used the DW with more powerful tools than 5 amps with no problem. If you can afford the Festool you will get a better tool, but these days some folks just can't.
Pete
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