Oneida DC remote died - NOW WITH UPDATE FROM ONEIDA!!

[Dan Hintz]

One would think they would take the initiative to have a few users send faulty units back for an autopsy... a $5 USPS flat-rate box from a few users will quickly narrow down what component is failing (for high-power switching, usually it's a relay whose contacts are fried from transient contact arcing). If product quality is a concern, post-mortems are the best way to ensure you're selling what you claim.

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan, what's an LVC?

Philip

Low Voltage Control- a mag start that uses a contactor with low voltage coil, usually 26 volts. That allows it to be controlled from one (or more) small, remotely mounted button stations that are connected with small gauge wire, instead of having everything in one big box like machines have now.

Photo of my jointer with the stalk I added. The cover has been removed from the starter box which houses a small transformer, contactor, and over-current heaters:

[Philip Berman]

John, my very first line gives credit to Oneida. It also points to a post I felt was somewhat inaccurate, which is why the post begins with "Yes Ryan........." The balance of the post was in response to another post in which the selection of words implied a somewhat inaccurate history. The intent when composing the post was not 'pounding', nor do I now see it that way. The retelling of a less-than-complimentary story may be unpleasant and was not done with intent of malice, but to not address a post that inaccurately portrayed or perhaps implied a different story would be to compromise the integrity of this forum which many of us refer to as a source of information when contemplating a purchase.

Philip

[John Keeton]

For an update on my end - I did receive my receiver and remote from Oneida - having ordered it a few days ago as noted in an earlier post. I spoke with Lisa today, and she is processing my credit per Jeff's email to me that was posted earlier, as well.

Given my lack of electrical experience, I was apprehensive about trying to rewire the new unit, but it was much easier than I anticipated. The contractor and relay come out of the box as a unit by pressing open the metal clip on the side. That permits easy access, and I just rerouted each new wire as I removed the old ones to keep the wiring correct. Took about 10 minutes, and everything works as new!

It is nice to have my remote back in working condition - though it is going to cut down a bit on my exercise!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A manufacturer owes a buyer nothing beyond the agreed warrantee at the time of the sale regardless of price.


Rather than this thread, I would suggest it was John's repectful communication that caused Oneida to respond to the situation.

From someone who worked for 34 years in customer service for two of the most recognized global corporations, after a while you can become calloused towards irrational rants, realizing them as what they are, irrational rants. On the other hand, one will listen intently to someone who dares disagree or plead their case in a respectful manner. Often an emotional, irrational, confrontational customer will get only what the contract specifies. Customers who are better mannered will often get a lot beyond the agreed contract.

Insulting, belittling, threatening, angering or publicly embarrassing someone is not the most successful way to get your desired outcome.

[Mel Fulks]

Good points,Ken. I once heard a business franchise owner say he would not intercede on behalf of a customer with a complaint who thought he was a crook. "If I help him ,he will still think I'm a crook". Made the guy deal with manufacturer by himself.

[Alan Lightstone]

Just a note on use of the Oneida remote, which you have probably experienced: They will not work if you sit them on a metal machine top and push the button. Something about the metal blocks or absorbs the signal. Hand held or sitting on wood is not a problem.

Yes. I notice this all the time.

I'll have to contact Oneida regarding my recent replacement. I appreciate Jeff Hill's response. I will appreciate it all far more when I can count on years of trouble-free service from the remote.

What I appreciate about my Lexus that it just plain works. Period. For what an Oneida costs compared to the competition, I expect the same.

[Mike Heidrick]

Alan, You can add additional momentary power buttons and estops to any contactor/motor starter. The coil circuit does not require much amperage at all and the wires also are not large.

[Chris Padilla]

Yes, the metal perturbs the fields and messes up the designed antenna pattern. You've kind of "grounded" the antenna placing it too close to metal.

Yes. I notice this all the time.

I'll have to contact Oneida regarding my recent replacement. I appreciate Jeff Hill's response. I wiill appreciate it all far more when I can count on years of trouble-free service from the remote.

What I appreciate about my Lexus that it just plain works. Period. For what an Oneida costs compared to the competition, I expect the same.

[Larry Browning]

Alan, You can add additional momentary power buttons and estops to any contactor/motor starter. The coil circuit does not require much amperage at all and the wires also are not large.

What purpose does a momentary power button serve on a DC? As usual, I am completely clueless as to why that would be useful on a DC system. I am assuming that this is a button that you would press and hold for as long as you want the motor to run. When you released it the power would be shut off. Is this correct?

[Philip Berman]

As I understand it the momentary power is what changes the state of the contactor, i.e. causes the magnetic switch to complete or break the circuit. The magnetic switch will break the circuit if it loses power, such as the if circuit loses power from a popped breaker or a blackout, but it will not re-start the machine when the power is restored unless the momentary power is supplied once again, which of course would be a purposeful action. The momentary power can come from a remote control or some other wired momentary-contact switch. In the case of the Oneida the momentary power is 220v, but in other cases the switch can be 110 or 24v, any of which can control the 220v power, depending on the relay/contactor used.

Phil

[Larry Browning]

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. Since there is a mag switch on the circuit, in order to be able to have the remote operate properly after a power interruption you need to supply momentary power in order to get the starting system back "in sync". Is that correct? The mag switch is in the circuit to provide overload protection. Correct?

[John Coloccia]

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. Since there is a mag switch on the circuit, in order to be able to have the remote operate properly after a power interruption you need to supply momentary power in order to get the starting system back "n sync". Is that correct?

A magnetic switch is just a relay controlling the power to the motor. When you hit the momentary "on" button, it energizes the relay and the motor goes on. The relay keeps itself turned on by feeding power from it's own output back into itself. That little bit of power is routed through a momentary off switch. When you hit that, it will break the circuit that's energizing the relay and the relay opens, cutting power both to the motor and to itself.

So when the power goes out, the relay pops open. When the power comes back on, the machine won't automatically start up as it normally would if there were just a simple on/off switch that had been left on. There's no way to leave a magnetic switch on. You energize it to get it to close, and it keeps itself closed until the power goes away, either because you broke the circuit of because the power goes out. All the remote control does is energize/de-energize the relay's coils, just like the switches do. Most often with a remote, the relay doesn't keep itself turned on...it relies on the remote to keep it fed.

On my Clearvue, I have a different arrangement. I have a 240V relay with a 120V coil I ran 4 wires for that particular 240 outlet so that I could get the neutral to grab the little bit of 120 I needed to drive the relay (it's only 1 amp or so). The relay is controlled by....get this....a christmas light remote control strip. I've had that a good number of years now with no problems, and when it starts acting up they're only about $25. Of course, I had to build my own box. Certainly not a big deal, but it's a hassle many people would want to bother with.

[Philip Berman]

Thanks for that explanation John, it just cleared something up for me. I actually dislike the remote and would instead like to control the DC by opening a blastgate (I'm good at turning on the DC, not so much opening the blastgate), but don't want it to turn off by closing the gate. For that I'd like a separate button, probably at each blastgate and perhaps one or 2 more elsewhere in the shop, so that if I"m going from one machine to another I don't cycle the unit on and off but will manually turn it off. I Couldn't get how I was going to wire that up, but your explanation cleared it up, I think. Normally on these things there are 2 separate buttons, one to turn the unit on and one to turn it off. As I've understood you, the 'on' button would control one circuit, the one that momentarily provides power that causes the magnetic switch to complete the circuit and power up the motor, but the 'off' button would momentarily break a different circuit, the one that maintains the magnetic switch in the energized state during operation. Am I correct in this understanding?

thanks for your help with this

Philip

[John Coloccia]

Thanks for that explanation John, it just cleared something up for me. I actually dislike the remote and would instead like to control the DC by opening a blastgate (I'm good at turning on the DC, not so much opening the blastgate), but don't want it to turn off by closing the gate. For that I'd like a separate button, probably at each blastgate and perhaps one or 2 more elsewhere in the shop, so that if I"m going from one machine to another I don't cycle the unit on and off but will manually turn it off. I Couldn't get how I was going to wire that up, but your explanation cleared it up, I think. Normally on these things there are 2 separate buttons, one to turn the unit on and one to turn it off. As I've understood you, the 'on' button would control one circuit, the one that momentarily provides power that causes the magnetic switch to complete the circuit and power up the motor, but the 'off' button would momentarily break a different circuit, the one that maintains the magnetic switch in the energized state during operation. Am I correct in this understanding?

thanks for your help with this

Philip

Let's see if this works:

----ON-------OFF--------RelayCoil ||||| RelayOuput-----------MOTOR
----------|____________________________________|

The ON is normally open, and the OFF is normally closed. When you hit ON, it turns on the relay, and a little bit is looped back from the output to keep the relay closed. When you hit OFF, it interrupts the circuit keeping it closed, and everything switches off.

In your case, it's traditional to run remote wiring as low voltage wiring.....mainly so you don't kill yourself. To do this with low voltage wiring this wiring scheme will not work because you can't "loop" the relay output back into the low voltage coil without blowing things up....and again, killing yourself.

What you COULD do, however, is build a second low voltage magnetic switch. Everything is identical to the wiring you see above EXCEPT replace the word "motor" with "Motor Relay". So you'll have two magnetic switches....one to handle the low voltage latching and logic, and that one drives the one that contols the motor.

So the total wiring diagram would look something like this:

12V-----BlastGates--------OFF-----12VCoil||||||12VOutput---------12VCoil ||||| 240VOuput-----------MOTOR
-----..............---..--|________________________________|

So on the low voltage side, you have a low voltage relay....12V or 24V....whichever you like, but if you go 12V parts and things will be very easy to find because you can use automotive switches, relays, etc. Then you control the motor side of things with a relay that has a 12V coil but switched contacts to handle your dust collector. Really, you should be looking for contactors, not "relays" as contactors are designed for this sort of switching and continuous use. So let's say you have a 240V, 20A dust collector, you would need to look for a 2 pole contactor rated for 20A@240V with a 12V coil.