Shape for a krenov plane - not so simple? . . . .

[Matthew N. Masail]

Ok, I've had it !! I need some advice. I've made way too many of these things to think that doing it again will be fun.... now it would just be fun to end up with a tool that feels right.

this is my latest:

P2230267 (1280x960).jpg

looks good right?... well... the damn thing just won't sit right in my hand, it performed (my it rest in peace) like a champ but just wasn't right, so ended up being a gini-pig for experimentation on body shape - and it's not the first.


So I have 3 Hock irons waiting for a body, and a glued up plane waiting for shaping. it would be critical for me to get it right this time as this is turning into a real aggravation. the only smoother I've made that is a keeper is a recent coffin smoother. being I've made about 6 of them that's not a good record.


They all work great, but that is useless to me if it doesn't feel like part of my hand when I'm using it.


So, 2 options:


1. sell the Hock iron and concentrate on coffin smoothers (and learn to chop it out not glue it). hoping LV will provide us with some 1 3\4 irons in PMV-11...


2. I'm still hopeful there is a krenov shape that will work for me. (I've looked everywhere on the web imaginable). I got the blades that are 4 1\2 inches long, but have no problem grinding them down if needed.


So, if you have a Krenov type plane that works for you, and could share a picture and a few thoughts on the shaping and grip, I'd really appreciate it.

P.S
Sorry for being dramatic, I'm a bit hyped up.

[Casey Gooding]

Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw. Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw. Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw. Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw. Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw. Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw. Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw. Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw. Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw. Use it. Make adjustments with your bandsaw.

Ad nauseum.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks. but trust me, I did that did that did that did that did that = nothing left of the plane. of many planes. I'm under the impression now that the right shape shouldn't need such intense customizing.

this thread is coming after I've been through A LOT of experimenting, I'm hoping for some insights.

[george wilson]

I suggest not making the rear grip so slanted. If it were me,I'd make it more vertical at the bottom,and round it at the top. Look at pictures of old coffin smooth planes' rear contours. To me,your design would be to "slippery" to hold on to well.

[Andrew Hughes]

I think your plane is very handsome,I also have a few that don't feel good to use one is too wide and one too narrow.One thing I noticed about your is it looks tall.
I did hold one of James krenovs planes in my hand it seemed small to me.And it was very rough.Ron Hock had it on his table he didn't take his eyes off me.Maybe he thought I was going to run out the door.
I offered him twenty dollars for it as a joke. I can't repeat his words on this forum.He is a very funny guy.

[Bryan Ericson]

There are some photos of planes made by Krenov himself on the internet - do a Google image search for them. His planes are pretty roughly shaped, and they're not symmetrical - look carefully at the photos and you'll see it. You might try the terms "plane made by krenov" and "krenov made plane". In general, they're less rounded, more boxy than yours, which to me looks like the planes in Finck's book. Krenov's planes seem to be made to please the hand and not the eye.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I suggest not making the rear grip so slanted. If it were me,I'd make it more vertical at the bottom,and round it at the top. Look at pictures of old coffin smooth planes' rear contours. To me,your design would be to "slippery" to hold on to well.

Your right, "Slippery" is exactly the main problem I've been having. do you mean somthing like this infiill?:
https://www.google.co.il/search?q=co...2F%3B600%3B400

I've tried the vertical approach, in different ways. but not curved into an "egg shape" like the photo. the problem I had with it is that without the blade to counter act against the hand there is no solid grip either. if I were to use an egg shape I would have to carve the plane out of a single block of wood so I'd probably just make a coffin smoother - I'm willing to go that way if I have too, I'd be happier in the end that's for sure if I carve it out of a solid block, but I'd have to sell the Hock irons and get somthing else. I'm wondering if I can get a solid grip without using the blade as part of it.

[Matthew N. Masail]

There are some photos of planes made by Krenov himself on the internet - do a Google image search for them. His planes are pretty roughly shaped, and they're not symmetrical - look carefully at the photos and you'll see it. You might try the terms "plane made by krenov" and "krenov made plane". In general, they're less rounded, more boxy than yours, which to me looks like the planes in Finck's book. Krenov's planes seem to be made to please the hand and not the eye.

good point about the boxyness.... but I have tried that..

[Matthew N. Masail]

I think your plane is very handsome,I also have a few that don't feel good to use one is too wide and one too narrow.One thing I noticed about your is it looks tall.
I did hold one of James krenovs planes in my hand it seemed small to me.And it was very rough.Ron Hock had it on his table he didn't take his eyes off me.Maybe he thought I was going to run out the door.
I offered him twenty dollars for it as a joke. I can't repeat his words on this forum.He is a very funny guy.

LOL..... I would have offered him 10

[Stanley Covington]

If you are willing to sacrifice the plane for a brighter future in handtools, you should cut the front and back of the plane down as close to the sole as you think the plane can handle and still remain usable, leaving the sole, the angled "frog," and mouth as-is. Then drill the sole and insert a few dowels extending upwards. Then place/mold lumps of HARD modeling clay at the front and back of the plane, supported by the dowels. Then use the plane. Adjust the clay, Use the plane. Adjust the clay. Over time the pressure from your hands will mold the clay.

I suggest you do not lock the shape in so rigidly that there remains only one way to hold the plane comfortably, because you may find your technique changes over time. But I think you will find that this exercise will give you a better idea of the shape that best fits your hands and body and workbench height.

Stan

[Mark Dorman]

Good call Stanley; I was thinking along those lines as well. Cut it down until it's to small then start building it up with clay.

[Mark Kornell]

So, if you have a Krenov type plane that works for you, and could share a picture and a few thoughts on the shaping and grip, I'd really appreciate it.

Here's a block plane that might give you an idea:
Laminated Block - side.jpg

My hand wraps around the back of the plane, tucking in just underneath the iron. The lip provides support for pushing the plane through a cut.

With this jack, it took 3 tries to get the shape to feel good:
Jack - ortho rear.jpg
The key was getting the area my hand grips to be narrower than what the 1 7/8" iron would typically dictate. Hard to tell from the pic, but the rise behind the iron has mild indents on both sides. Perhaps 1/8" on each side, but it made a world of difference. Prior to working out the indents, my hand would fatigue after about 5 minutes of use.

[Nelson Howe]

The back of yours looks steep and the front edges look too sharp to me to be comfortable. Here are two of mine I like.

Don't give up. You'll get one that works for you.

Nelson

[Stanley Covington]

Good call Stanley; I was thinking along those lines as well. Cut it down until it's to small then start building it up with clay.

I wish it was an original idea, but I stole it from the industrial design boys specializing in egonomics.

Stan

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

One small advantage I have is that I own a smoother made by Jim Krenov. I had dissected it here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...0Smoother.html

The size is deceptive. It is 9" long ..



The planes are also not very high. The originals used cut down Stanley bench plane blades or whole block plane blades. The Hock blades are short, probably made expressively for JK's planes.

Very recently I decided to build a few Krenov planes - amongst others, including solid body planes - for a forthcoming LN Tool Event in Perth (as I shall be presenting demonstrations on plane building).

The key elements of a Krenov plane - aside from the laminated process, which is likely something that goes back a long way in time - is the cross pin and the low centre of gravity. The cross pin is shaped to turn so as to find the best angle to hold the blade. The low centre of gravity comes from the plane's height (e.g. the cross pin is about 1 1/2" up from memory). It is this low centre of gravity that gives these planes such terrific feedback. Krenov shaped his planes for comfort and feedback. His followers made them look nice because we give the tool more importance than he did.

I built a few smoothers and a few block planes. The smoothers has 1 1/2" wide Hock blades with chip breaker at 55 degrees. These are 7" long. They are designed for difficult grain. The block planes use 1 1/4" Mujingfang blades (from LV) and are without a chipbreaker and set at 40 degrees (also bevel up). Only a smoother really benefits from a chip breaker. They are 5 1/4" long.

Here are examples ...





Both have very tight mouths (blades withdrawn here slightly as the pics were taken on the diningroom table.

I am so impressed with the performance of these planes. The smoothers are able to leave a clear surface on really gnarly grain, while the block plane performs as well as my best LA block planes. Both are so comfortable to hold. They mold into the palm - perhaps a good test is to use one one-handed.

Currently I am working on solid wood coffin smoothers. I will post pics of all the planes at a later stage.

Regards from Perth

Derek