Yes, it's different. Trademark infringement has nothing to do with the design of the product being sold. It has to do with the mark itself.Originally Posted by Phillip West
Member
Yes, it's different. Trademark infringement has nothing to do with the design of the product being sold. It has to do with the mark itself.
Michael Ray Smith
Contributor
The terms knockoff and counterfeit should not be used interchangeably.
A knockoff is basically a cheap imitation: the design of the original is closely copied, but there are usually differences in materials, workmanship, and minor design details that result in a product that is cheaper to build, which results in a lower price to the buyer. The brand name is usually some unknown private label brand. While it may superficially look like the original, there's no attempt by the manufacturer or retailer to portray the imitation as having the same brand as the original. The assumption behind this definition is that no patents, copyrights, or trademarks are violated. Knockoffs do have their purpose; not everyone can afford the most expensive brand, and not everyone needs the performance of the original for their task. Of course, knockoffs come with an implicit "caveat emptor" with regards to their quality, but at least the buyer is aware that he or she is not buying the original.
Counterfeit products are something else entirely. Counterfeits are cheap imitations that use the original product's branding in an attempt to portray themselves as the original. Counterfeits hurt a number of parties: the manufacturer of the original brand name; the buyer who thinks they're getting the original; and even the retailer, who may not even be aware that they are carrying a counterfeit version of the real thing, but could still end up being liable for damages. Counterfeits are illegal, and for good reason.
It's not all black and white, of course. Some knockoffs come very close to crossing the line to being counterfeit, or even go beyond "very close". OTOH, some products labeled as knockoffs are nothing more than simply less expensive goods. Even large manufacturers of many everyday products make higher grade and lower grade versions of their products.
Dealing with legal knockoffs is something that nearly every business owner needs to face at one time or other. I agree that word of mouth is the best way to educate potential buyers of the merits of dealing with the original. Good businesses will still succeed and even flourish by building and maintaining their reputation for quality and service. No business should have to deal with outright counterfeits, however.
Member
That's a pretty presumptuous statement. Have you considered that some people might live in areas of the country where used tools aren't readily available, or that they don't want to take the 50/50 chance that the plane on eBay might be complete crap and a waste of money. A few years back i won a #8, and while it looked excellent in pictures (hi res ones no less), it took a Bridgeport, a face mill, and removing roughly 1/32" from the sole to get it flat. Most of the stuff that is for sale locally, was either crap when it was new, or looks like it's been used as a boat anchor, an anvil or both. Now if you want old John Deer stuff you practically trip over it around here.
-Dan
[OP]
Contributor
Many folks here often comment they do not have or want to take the time to work on old tools. Others feel a person should purchase a new high quality plane so they know "how a good one works." Maybe my learning the art of wood was hampered by my not being able to afford brand new high quality tools when my adventures in woodworking began. Maybe it is my fortune to not have given up when things didn't work as wanted.
My response now to people asking whether to buy new or used is usually something to the tune of if you have money but not much time, buying new may be better. If you have a lot of time but little money, then learning to find and fix used tools may be the best route to filling one's tool chest. If people make comments about not wanting to take the time, is it presumptuous to echo their statements?
Yes, in some parts of our nation and the world it is close to impossible to find used quality anything let alone woodworking tools. These folks may be able to have others networking for them. While enjoying a beer with my neighbor my propensity for buying woodworking tools came up. The next week he brought me a WW II version of a Stanley/Bailey #5 complete with a broken tote and toe end hang hole. So one should take care when enlisting the eyes of others.
Almost all parts of the country have classified advertising papers found in the local grocer and other businesses. In the local edition here there is a person who places ads stating he buys woodworking tools. He also sells them. Some of my tools were bought from him. My lathe was found with the aide of a "want to buy" card placed on the local supermarket's community bulletin board.
My stance used to be that people should purchase used and work on bringing an old tool back to life. After reading comments from many not having time, having limited shop time or even not being confident with using the tools required to fettle metal, my stance has changed.
Bad deals from second hand sales are no stranger to me. There are some people who will take advantage of every situation possible without regard to honesty. There are also people who will do everything possible to make sure what they sell is proper.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Member
I would be willing to bet that the people who frequent the forum are a very small percentage of woodworking community, and thus not representative.
I wouldn't say I was taken advantage of, more like I purchased a tool from an antique dealer who didn't know any better.
-Dan
[OP]
Contributor
Not being much of a betting person, my money would be on there not being much point to continuing this discussion.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Member
They do so much manually because the capital costs of doing it otherwise are prohibitive. Sure, they could save 20% on their materials, knock 15% or more off their production time, but when doing so costs 3 times their annual revenue, that's probably a non-starter. Scaling up costs money, and if you can't get enough scale to make the money back, the subsequent economies of scale are only meaningful to the liquidation house.
It came to pass...
"Curiosity is the ultimate power tool." - Roy Underhill
The road IS the destination.
Member
Brass isn't cheap, and the tite-mark looks to be a one piece head turned out of solid bar stock, so it looks like he is spending a lot more on material than he needs to. The LV gauge is a two piece head, with a brace face an anodized aluminum body. The tite-mark could be constructed the same way completely out of brass, and would be a lot cheaper.
The first sentence in Glen's rant is "I design, make, and sell tools for a living" If he can't come up with with a few $k to buy/build a small cnc lathe for example I have to question how much business he is really doing or what he calls a living. He could probably cnc a little bench top manual lathe for less than $2k and produce stuff faster than he ever could manually.
-Dan
[OP]
Contributor
Not having been to Glen Drake's facility it wasn't clear to me that he is cranking these out by hand. He sure is faster with his hands than me.
Having both the LV and the Tite-Mark inspired me to post a comparison:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...as-Wheel-Gauge
My Tite-Mark purchase was at a show so there was free shipping. Full retail was fine with me and there wouldn't be hesitation to purchase another if needed or suggest its purchase to anyone wanting a wheel type gauge.
If someone wants a less expensive gauge there are plenty of old Stanley gauges available. My old Stanleys get used almost as often as the Tite-Mark. The Veritas is a decent gauge. Mine doesn't get used much.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Member
I met Mr. Drake at the LN hand tool event in San Marcos, CA about a month ago. We chatted and I could feel wisdom flowing from him. Everything tool he designed and showed me had his personal experience in mind. I had long lusted his marking gauge, and although I meant to buy a low angle jack, I decided to get his gauge. In a strange way I often think of Glen when I grab his gauge. I've never felt that way about a cheap ass screwdriver.
Member
My wife is puzzled at my purchases from LV lately. I have tried to explain to her quality will last, but cheap products will cost you more when you have to purchase them over and over again. She like most people in this country are following what the big box stores are trying to train people to do,and that is to buy and then buy again. That's how they keep their bottom line in tact. I have been able to buy some really nice older tools lately which has proven to her quality counts and really saves money.
You never get the answer if you don't ask the question.
Joe
[OP]
Contributor
Yes, the makers come to mind when their tools are used.In a strange way I often think of Glen when I grab his gauge. I've never felt that way about a cheap ass screwdriver.
The makers even come to mine when some "cheap @$$" tool is in hand. Although those thoughts are not fit for pixels in a public forum.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Contributor
I was at the same show and bought a Tite-Mark from him. At an earlier show in San Diego, there was a slack period of about 1/2 hour during which he basically taught me how to saw. The most important part of all that was teaching me to listen to the saw. Anyway, the point is that I would no more buy a cheap knock-off of his tools than I would [insert whatever you think is really bad here.]
Member
- drink warm doublebock beer outside on a hot Las Vegas July day.
- take a drama llama to a greyhound race
- install a bandsaw blade facing backwards with the teeth pointing up
- make a kimchee eclair
- serve beans and weenies to the family before a long car trip
- take safety training from Wile. E. Coyote
- Windsurf in a Sharknado
It came to pass...
"Curiosity is the ultimate power tool." - Roy Underhill
The road IS the destination.
Contributor
That isn't the full list is it?
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