Sharpening frustration - I need a one-size-fits-all method

[glenn bradley]

You are caught in a twofold dilemma; firstly, people have almost as strong opinions about sharpening methods as they do about hand plane adjustments (read "endless") and secondly, you are seeking a one-size-fits-all which ALWAYS results in a thing that works great for something and is a compromise for everything else.

If your scary sharp paper wears out too soon it is either poor paper or you are using the scary sharp method for too much material removal; they make other things for that. I remember watching someone on a forum use a Worksharp 3000 to shape a new and different primary bevel on a chisel. You could perform this task on a Tormek with equal or even greater time consumption but, why would you? My point is that there are items and methods for different sharpening tasks and a set of stones is not the end-all, be-all.

I commiserate with your overthinking standstill, sharpening is certainly one of the places where that can happen. I use chisels, gouges, planes, scrapers, shaves, etc. While most flat irons have the same basic requirement, short or long/heavy irons can require "extras". I would focus on what you have the most of (most of your chisels and planes for example) and get a system for those that works for you. Once this baseline methodology is established you can add-on for cutters with more special needs.

If it makes you feel any better I have stones, slips, rods, diamond plates, discs and paddles, a Veritas guide, a Kell guide, a Larson-style guide, a Worksharp 3K, scary sharp system and bench grinders. None of these gather any moss ;-)

[Patrick Chase]

The church of the hollow grind has some interesting features. It requires a bench grinder and removes more metal than I feel is necessary.

Some follow the teachings of the flat bevel. (that is the church of my choice)

Grinding removes a tiny bit "more metal" when you establish the hollow for the very first time (and the volume of the hollow is actually stunningly small). After that you only remove as much as you need to keep the secondary bevel thin, and that ends up being exactly the same amount as you remove to achieve the same thing with a flat bevel.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

I don't need my tools to be sharper than a razor blade, but I do need them sharp.

I am not a sharpening guru, and I don't have every stone ever produced. Those guys will probably show up, and generally know what they are talking about, so don't mistake what follows as a suggestion they are completely full of it. I just don't know how helpful some of the extremely nuanced things they talk about are to a person learning to sharpen. If you find them helpful by all means, pull up a chair and start reading. You don't even have to wait for them to show up, you can just do a search and find 9000 threads that went 20 pages about the best way to sharpen anything with all kinds of (usually expensive) options. Then you can flip a coin and pick one side of the argument, and buy whatever that side uses, because you probably won't be able to tell which side is actually right.

Here's my opinion. If you are just starting out, and don't know what you are doing, you don't need to go out and buy a bunch of stuff. You have what you need, and need to focus on learning to use it. I have a Norton 1000/8000, which was the Lie Nielsen recommended stone two or three years ago. I am not sure what has happened that suddenly makes the Norton Stones unfit for use. If you go back in the archives, you will find posts telling people the King stones were the bees knees, and then all of a sudden they were crap and the Nortons were far superior. Wait a week, and people will be telling you the Shaptons are fit for nothing but doorstops, because somebody will invent something even better. Fact is the Kings probably used to be able to sharpen a chisel, the Nortons will sharpen a chisel, and so will the Shaptons, and so will diamond stones. If you had nothing and were buying new, that would be one thing, but to chuck perfectly good stones you already have when you don't really know what you want makes little sense to me.

It sounds like you probably have a 1000/4000. I have the 8000, and use it and like it, and it makes a good edge. Don't tell the guys that go up to 16000 before switching to a horse leather strop (only horse leather, only the correct part of the horse mind you, and only the correct side of the leather will do), but sometimes 1000 is all I need and I don't always bother to go to the 8000. It depends on what I am doing and the finish I need. I would think for someone learning to sharpen, you probably will be fine going from 1000 to 4000, and when you get more experience and want something better you can go out and get it.

I don't disagree with the people that say freehand is best, but without somebody to spend ten minutes showing you how to do things, it can be hard to learn freehand. A guide will get you a good edge, and there is nothing wrong with using it. Sandpaper wears too fast and is too expensive. For chisels Norton waterstones are fine. Don't lose sleep about them going out of flat. It happens, and you need to flatten occasionally. They don't go dramatically out of flat just sitting there. It takes a while, and you can get a lot of good edges off the stone before you have to flatten it. You can go longer if you move the chisel around on the stone so it wears more evenly. If you sharpen a few times and the edge seems fine, you start wondering why people need moon dust sprinkled on titanium, mixed with an eye of newt to get the stone flattened to .0000000001 before the chisel can be permitted in the same building with it.

If you don't know if your stones are flat enough, put a piece of 400 or 600 grit sandpaper on your granite block, mark the stone with a pencil, and rub it back and forth until the pencil marks are gone. That will be flat enough to get you a good edge. The sharpening gods will be able to get a flatter stone and a better edge, and their electron scanning microscopes will demonstrate the superior quality of the surface, but for normal guys trying to work normal wood, I think what I am describing will work. In any event it will get you some practical experience you can use to evaluate the product recommendations these threads often turn into. A lot of the trouble in sharpening advice is that people are arguing most passionately about it are trying to marginally improve very fine edges. To them it all makes a difference, but to normal people either edge, and either bag of gear and tricks would be more than adequate.

Bottom line is you can get a good edge with what you have. Not the sharpest edge humankind has ever seen. But a good edge. If you need some more advice, Lie Nielsen has a YouTube channel (free) that had good videos about sharpening the last time I looked. I would look at them and spend some time using what you have before you pull out the credit card.

[paul cottingham]

Beltgrinder, 10,000 grit stone and a strop. I get good edges.

[Jim Koepke]

Grinding removes a tiny bit "more metal" when you establish the hollow for the very first time (and the volume of the hollow is actually stunningly small). After that you only remove as much as you need to keep the secondary bevel thin, and that ends up being exactly the same amount as you remove to achieve the same thing with a flat bevel.

Yes Patrick, in skilled hands a bench grinder shouldn't remove much metal and with care will not overheat the metal.

Sadly, I have seen too many tools after meeting the bench grinder in unskilled hands.

I have never over heated a blade when hand sharpening a flat bevel. Unless I fall asleep and keep sharpening it isn't likely I'll remove too much metal while honing a flat bevel.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Yes Patrick, in skilled hands a bench grinder shouldn't remove much metal and with care will not overheat the metal.

It doesn't take that much skill - the trick is simply to avoid grinding the edge.

It's pretty hard to burn a tool by grinding on the primary bevel face alone, because when doing so you have both high effective thermal mass and good conductivity. Where people get into trouble is when they grind a thin edge. Of course sometimes you do have to work the edge, for example to repair a chip, and in that case the trick is to grind the edge back at 90 deg and then work the primary bevel...

[Kees Heiden]

Nicholas is absolutely right. You allready have all you need. No need to spend money now, you just need practice.

[Stew Hagerty]

Nicholas is absolutely right. You allready have all you need. No need to spend money now, you just need practice.

I agree to a point. If you do not plan on continuing to use paper, then I would get a strop & some green compound to add to your combo-stone regimen. After you're done with the 4000 side, give it about 3 swipes on the strop and you should end up with a edge sharp enough for just about anything you could run into.

Oh... One more thing. A couple of guys have said to scrap your honing guide and go freehand. While you certainly can do this, I have found that my time is better spent using sharp tools that teaching my body some muscle memory. At least while you are learning, that would be my recommendation. You already have the guide so it's not an added expense.

For what it's worth, I use Oil Stones. I have Course, Medium, & Fine India Stones from Norton for rough work on damaged blades. For everyday sharpening & honing, I have a set of 3 Dan's Whetsones. I have a Soft Arkansas, a Hard Arkansas, and a Black Arkansas. And I still keep a strop hanging on a board for quicky touch-ups.

[Jim Koepke]

Nicholas is absolutely right. You allready have all you need. No need to spend money now, you just need practice.

+1 on this good advice.

jtk

[Christian Thompson]

+1 on this good advice.

jtk

Me too. I think I have the same 1K / 4K combo and it works fine (I do finish with a 8k stone, but a strop works too). The trick to getting stuff done quickly, like others have mentioned, is practice. Sometimes using the jig is fiddly and takes a lot of time. I used to have a really hard time with getting whatever I was sharpening square in the jig so I would end up with bevels that weren't parallel (edit - this really bothered me so I would spend a lot of time trying to fix it). Getting the "cambered" roller attachment helped, but soon after that I went to free hand which saves a bunch of time. In my opinion free hand is the way to go once you get a feeling for what your tools look and feel like when they are sharp or dull. At that point touching up 4 chisels at the end of the day shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

As far as flat with the water stones go, I might be in the minority, but I just don't worry that much about it. I definitely don't flatten every time I use a stone. If it gets bad I have a diamond stone I use to flatten the water stone. I used to try to use wet/dry sandpaper on glass and that was a huge PITA. But with the diamond stone it is really easy and quick. I agree with some of the criticism that water stones are messy, but it is manageable. As far as rust goes, I just wipe my tools a few times with an oily rag after sharpening and have never had an issue.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

... it seems like everywhere you go, folks say something different. You watch Paul Sellers, and he swears by diamond stones, but then you shop around, and find people in forums talking about how diamond stones aren't flat enough, or they wear too much, or any other number of negative things about that. The same information seems to be out there for water stones. Before this turns into a rant(did it already? sorry.), let me tell you what I have.

My biggest complaint with diamond stones is that there is usually more uneveness to the grit size (or something), so it generally leaves more scratches. If you but metal to your diamond stones and you do not see this, well, then move on and use them if you desire.

-Veritas MKII honing guide
-Norton combo stone (1k/4k I think - it's the light brown and tan one)
-Granite reference block
-PSA 3M paper of multiple grades

I vaguely remember hearing people discussing gluing down sandpaper, but for really fine grits, this was a problem. Historically, I just used water to hold things down. Not as nice as as the other, but I am using wet/dry sand paper.

Scary sharp method - wears out paper *almost* immediately, and I made the mistake of sticking it down to the granite, and boy does it stick!

That concerns me (the wearing out almost immediately part).

When do you wear it out? Are you doing this wet or dry?

Historically, I have used wet/dry automotive sandpaper. Is it possible that your sandpaper is loading up with metal?

With sandpaper, I usually pull the blade with the sharp part not being pushed into the paper (since I have punctured / ripped the paper doing that).

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

So, in closing, I don't need my tools to be sharper than a razor blade, but I do need them sharp. I really wish there was some fast, easy way to sharpen - at least for chisels. It would be nice if I could just take my 4 chisels at the end of the day, and just clean them all up in 20 minutes. Am I dreaming? Before I go and buy any other sharpening tool, I need you all clear-minded folks to smack me and put my in my place.

Thoughts?

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

So initially it did not dish, but now it does? That sounds suspicious. Did you leave it soaking too long and break down the binder or something? I know that you should soak the Norton for about 10 minutes before use. And do not let them freeze, especially wet. Off hand, I think that Norton stones (like you have) can soak indefinitely, so that is likely not the problem.

http://www.nortonstones.com/uploaded...rs%20Guide.pdf

How do you flatten your stone?

So, you always use your honing guide? What is your regimen? Do you set one chisel, then work it all the way through so the angle remains consistent?

Have you ever tried to free-hand? This is easier if the front flat is concave from say a Tormek (or similar). If you want to try free handing, I can make this happen for you (as in I will send you some partially prepared chisels that you can practice on in various states of readiness). You live too far away to simply drop in to my shop. Alternatively, does anyone live near Mike that can help him out?

So, Mike, if you want me to do something, drop me a PM and I will make it happen.

[Kees Heiden]

You were looking for a universal method. So, independent of the medium you want to:

- Create a burr. All the way across the edge.
- And remove it with finer media.

After that you have a sharp edge.

[Tom Vanzant]

Exactly! (added characters to meet minimum)

[david charlesworth]

\it seems that you already have all you need, it is just the method which is eluding you.

Not sure about your stone description. Brown is 1000grit suitable for raising a wire edge at say 30 or 33 degrees,

This then may be polished at 32 or 35 degrees with a polishing stone. Preferably Norton 8000 grit in your case, though 4000 would do. Wire edge taken off flat on the polishing stone.

Stones need constant flattening , and 240 or 180 wet and dry, used wet on your granite will do this job. No need to glue) Pencil lines show any wear.

My L-N DVD shows this process.

Water stones probably won't work for you unless you have a sink handy!

Best wishes,
David

[Patrick Chase]

Water stones probably won't work for you unless you have a sink handy!

FWIW I use a couple of these when when I have limited access to running water : http://www.amazon.com/Norton-IM-83-W.../dp/B002BWOR54. It isn't very practical with combo stones though.

David, I could swear I once saw pictures of a Norton IM-83 in one of your FWW articles :-)