Contributor
I have no problem if people want to use historical techniques. George Wilson used historical techniques and produced some wonderful things. But he doesn't try to tell everyone that they should only use past techniques.Originally Posted by Patrick Chase
You didn't quote the second part of my posting.
Mike
[I note that when I ask someone who advocates that everyone should use only past techniques "Why?" I never get an answer.]
Last edited by Mike Henderson; 01-02-2017 at 4:01 PM.
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Member
I didn't address it because it's an inherently contentious topic.
If you must know, my blunt opinion is that some people have trouble recognizing that their opinions about what's good for them and their requirements aren't necessarily valid or appropriate for everybody. It's often a symptom of narcissism, with the occasional legitimate spectrum-inhabitant in the mix (and it's important to recognize and distinguish between the two IMO).
Also, the Internet is not conducive to "best behavior" as it's hard to be thoughtful when you're in a many-way debate wherein people aren't really listening to each other. I've seen people who I know are perfectly reasonable in real life turn into complete a**holes, and I've done it myself (just ask George). Once you've been assaulted for opinions that you KNOW are valid enough times you tend to build up some scarring. Warren gets a pass in my book because of the cap-iron thing alone - he got beaten up pretty badly for something that we now know to have been 100% right.
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-02-2017 at 4:26 PM.
Contributor
Okay, point taken.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Moderator
A partial answer Mike. I use a made up set of James Swan paring chisels which were undoubtedly equivalent to what we would today call W-1. They take an incredibly keen edge quite easily on ceramic, diamond, and oilstones. They also sharpen very well on SiC paper when I travel with them. I know of no current maker of paring chisels who produces tools anywhere approaching the Swan quality no matter what the composition of the steel. The set was built up from a Donnelley auction box lot if 12 chisels for about $90. There was a lot of rehab involved including a new full set of handles but it was worth the time and effort spent to get wonderfully functional, well balanced, and beautiful tools. At the other end of the spectrum I have my old set of serviceable but unappealing Marples Blue Chip chisels which are mediocre at best, need constant sharpening, and are butt ugly. My general purpose all around users are a set of L-N bench chisels in A2 which use a 30 degree bevel and stand up to almost anything but can't even come close to approaching the Swans for sharpness.
What I am trying to get across is that I find that top quality antique old technology, mid 20th century "OK" quality alloy steel, and modern A2 all have their appropriate place and I appreciate them all. Each has their niche in my arsenal. If I lived in Oz ala Stewie and Derek, my choices would be different and I'd probably gravitate toward the high abrasion resistant materials. Technology is great, but I can't see going out and buying just because something new and wonderful has come onto the market only to be replaced 2 years later by something newer and even more wonderful. As a hobbyist my time and money is better spent on more wood and time to practice my technique. Finally though, we all have different needs and therefore make different choices.
Last edited by Dave Anderson NH; 01-02-2017 at 4:45 PM.
Dave Anderson
Chester, NH
Member
I think in many fields woodworking included the newest technology is not automatically better. If your goal is edge retention than when it comes to chisels modern steels and chisels are your best option.
If your goal is decent edge retention and lower cost modern drop forged chisels can be a great option.
If your goal is a great professional set of chisels at low cost - you cannot beat the "Better alternative" of an older set in good condition.
If your goal is great edge retention, money no object - some of the Japanese makers are doing fabulous work today.
There are also people who find the geometry of early 19th century chisels better for the work they do and the modern features are not important to them. And some of the have superb edge retention.
-----
Owner
Tools for Working Wood
Member
Just to be clear, I am not labelling you a "narcissist" (at least not to a greater degree than most humans with Y chromosomes. You have noticed that opinionated forum-dwellers are overwhelmingly male, right? :-)
Member
I think Mike acknowledged that in the rest of his post, though admittedly the phrase you cited could have been worded to be more consistent with his overall thrust.
His question was about why some people insist that some technique or product X (where "X" is often traditional) is the *only* valid approach. I think he's got a point, though I also think it's unrealistic to expect people to stop doing that on the Interwebs.
BTW, I think that your blog is a great source of information about both traditional and modern tools.
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-02-2017 at 4:44 PM.
Member
Patrick; correct me if I am wrong but there is a common adage when it comes to Mech Engineers, if it aint broke it needs redesigning. As such, I wouldn't expect to see much of a strong connection between Mech Engineers, and the need to preserve past practices.
So I ask myself, what was the main incentive of others to move towards more abrasive resistant alloy. The most common excuse put forth on this thread has been the incessant need to save a few minutes of your precious time to stop and re-hone the cutting edge. How much per hour are most of you guys charging for your woodwork. !!!!
regards Stewie;
Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 01-02-2017 at 8:40 PM.
Member
It depends.
You're absolutely right that many if not most engineers instinctively tend towards "shiny new things".
With that said those of us in industry are generally playing with others' money, and we have a duty to make sure we don't squander it. You also learn very early on that many employers are happy with "good enough but not quite ideal" solutions if choosing those avoids the occasional spectacular failure from trying to do too much. There are notable exceptions, and I work for one right now, but they're just that: Exceptions.
If you talked to my colleagues they'd probably tell you that I'm basically conservative most of the time, and that I set a high bar for concluding that something is broken to the point of requiring overhaul as opposed to incremental improvements. They would also tell you that when I do decide that something needs redesign I tend to be VERY aggressive about making sure we do it so that we don't end up in the same place on the next project. Go big or go home and all that, with the understanding that "go home" is usually the right answer. At least that's what they say on my anonymous peer feedback (also, "he doesn't know when to shut up").
The thing you don't want to do is to spread yourself too thin trying to redesign everything. Pick your battles and make sure you win those, etc.
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-02-2017 at 8:48 PM.
Contributor
I'm not a mechanical engineer and I wouldn't characterize that as an adage, more like a punch line to an old joke. (It's the sort of thing I'd have said, loudly, in the cube farm when the ME's were the next aisle over and I wanted to provoke a reaction.)
I can't tell if you're trying to be insulting or honestly don't know.
While I'm off-topic, my nephew recently graduated as a Civil Engineer and mentioning targets is more amusing than it used to be. (Short version of old joke: EE's design command & control systems, ME's design weapons, CE's design targets. But it's only teasing. CE's also design infrastructure we need to live safely and comfortably.)
Contributor
The most basic answer to the question is that nothing (manmade) is perfect, everything can be improved.
Contributor
I'll give you an example: I teach a hand cut dovetails class. It's impossible for me to "touch up" each students chisels during the class and still get the class done. I use chisels with the longest lasting edge possible. If there were chisels that never had to be sharpened, I'd be first in line for them.
But more to the point, using old tools or new tools is a choice that each of us makes. The old tools route is not the "way", just waiting to be discovered by those of us who don't subscribe to that "way". I, for one, tried it and found that I'd prefer to be pragmatic and use the "best techniques" for me.
I found that a plane with a modern iron was light years better than when it had the old carbon steel iron. I found that chisels with modern formulations of steel allowed me to work longer and stay in the groove - and not have to stop and re-sharpen.
Maybe you like to sharpen, and if so, good for you. But don't try to sell me on it. I tried it and moved on to better things.
Mike
[And there's very little in the world that can't be improved. A lot of progress was made in the last 200 years, including in woodworking tools.]
Last edited by Mike Henderson; 01-02-2017 at 11:12 PM.
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Contributor
I see two sides to this mess going on....neither of whom will conceded a step until the post is indeed shut down.
each person has what works for them. None appear to want to try something "New" nor something "old" . I use what I have on hand. I may go and pop a bowl of popcorn, and watch while this trove of info slowly sinks into the sunset...
Too much of " I am right, so you are wrong" going on. Thread killer......
Member
It doesn't have to be that way. There is rationally room for a number of approaches, and vendors happy to cater to almost all of them.I see two sides to this mess going on....neither of whom will conceded a step until the post is indeed shut down.
each person has what works for them. None appear to want to try something "New" nor something "old" . I use what I have on hand. I may go and pop a bowl of popcorn, and watch while this trove of info slowly sinks into the sunset...
Too much of " I am right, so you are wrong" going on. Thread killer......
Member
Mike; I am not trying to sell you on anything. Stick to what suits you best, but do not deride me for not agreeing with your own approach.Maybe you like to sharpen, and if so, good for you. But don't try to sell me on it. I tried it and moved on to better things.
Mike
regards Stewie;
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