What has happened at Popular Woodworking magazine?

[Kurt Cady]

I have been discussing the problems we are facing for some time and I have made incremental steps to try and raise awareness hoping to gather support from people volunteering to help us financially. Sadly, only a very small number of people will read any post that I make whether its an announcement or thread. Posting in an existing active thread gets me more attention, trust me this has been the case for over 16 years. I can't make anyone read my posts, the majority skip right over the information I share so I use whatever means I can to share what I know.

I cannot provide the current level of services without a source of financial support. We went though this same situation in 2005 when the majority here decided that they preferred advertising to pay for free access. Today the majority are using advertising blocking which has taken a toll on our list of advertisers to the point that we cannot continue without finding an alternative source of funds.

I understand that a large number of people will cease to participate here, I have anticipated that over the last few months as I have made recent decisions. Honestly if 50 cents per month puts a burden on anyone here who probably owns thousands of dollars of tools and machinery that is a sad situation. Anyone who has ever paid for a magazine subscription should concede that the services here are a magnitude of several times more valuable. On a personal note I have often asked Members here what they think that I owe them or what services they think I am obligated to provide for free from my family budget or profits my sign business.

I have no intention to argue with anyone concerning the changes we are facing, the situation is your doing not mine. The majority here want free service and they block my efforts to provide them.

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is not losing active members; it is that there will now be a large hurdle for gaining new members. Like most everyone here I found this place through a Google search. If it wasn't free easy access to knowledge starting out, I would've clicked the next link and never looked back

[Hilton Ralphs]

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is not losing active members; it is that there will now be a large hurdle for gaining new members. Like most everyone here I found this place through a Google search. If it wasn't free easy access to knowledge starting out, I would've clicked the next link and never looked back

What about free access for the first six months or 50 posts? Hopefully after that the person is hooked.

[Keith Outten]

Contributors have always had the option to eliminate banner advertising here. They can turn them on or off at any time.

We don't always have a means to configure custom features, only what vBulletin offers and I can't afford custom programming. We are still planning to convert to Xenforo at some point in time, what we can customize is not known at this time.

Attracting new Subscribers will be more difficult. We hope that our Hall of Fame will serve to give people a taste of what is inside The Creek. Offering free access for 90 days will not prevent people from registering every 90 days.

The subscription rate will be somewhere between one to two dollars per month. All of our existing Contributors accounts will not be changed for their current period. If everyone would subscribe we could reduce the 6 dollars per year but we know the numbers will drop so the fee will probably have to be increased.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Keith

I have no issue with being charged a fee, and have been a Contributor for some years. I visit every day, even often pop in several times a day. This is a great woodworking forum ... but it is so because of the members who contribute here. Anything that makes membership difficult is going to dissuade membership, and then activity on the forums. That will kill the website.

As mentioned, $6 pa is a pittance. Most here spend more per day on something else and do not question that purchase. I do not think that it is the money, per se, that is the concern. It is how this is set up.

The other matter is the ad block apps. I use one on my laptop. I am on my iPad at present, which does not do this. It makes me aware that some websites will notify you to switch off an ad block to continue viewing. Sawmill Creek does not do this. That could be a simple solution to the advert situation .... if viewers then pause their ad blocker, the desired situation is restored, ads are activated, and you obtain your needed revenue. I would still continue to be a Contributor.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jake Hillestad]

Maybe if you ran off a few more valuable contributors (a la Stan Covington) that would increase the perceived value for the monetary contributions you need to keep the lights on....

[steven c newman]

Used to get mad at PBS every March....as their Fund Drives always pre-empted Norm's New Yankee Workshop....and you never did see those episodes again....wait, this is March, isn't it?

If'n I knew HOW and WHERE to send the dan..g $6 I would...don't have a Pay Pal account, anymore. Maybe just this once, I might try the "Contributor" and see IF it is worth the trouble...

[Bruce Page]

Steven, SMC's snail mail address is at the bottom of the Donate page.
https://sawmillcreek.org/payments.php

[Marshall Harrison]

Used to get mad at PBS every March....as their Fund Drives always pre-empted Norm's New Yankee Workshop....and you never did see those episodes again....wait, this is March, isn't it?

If'n I knew HOW and WHERE to send the dan..g $6 I would...don't have a Pay Pal account, anymore. Maybe just this once, I might try the "Contributor" and see IF it is worth the trouble...

PayPal allows you to use a credit or debit card just like any other online purchase. No account necessary.

[steven c newman]

I stopped using PayPal long ago...after my account was hacked....

[Tony Zaffuto]

I stopped using PayPal long ago...after my account was hacked....

You can use PayPal as a guest, without logging in.

[Keith Outten]

This isn't the Federal Government where some are treated differently than others, there is no ruling class here.

Over the years I have banned a lot of people and many of them were shining stars in the woodworking field who felt that the rules didn't apply to them because they were special. Most of these people didn't deserve to be here, they were disrespectful and some could not resist using The Creek to advertise their services. The only person I regret eliminating his access here was a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient. To this day I wish that I could have found a way to protect his access but his violation was about the worst behavior I have ever seen here. There are often facts that you will never know about a variety of infractions, most involve extremely disrespectful comments made in either email or private messages to me or one of our Moderators. If I visited your shop and cursed you or your wife like a construction worker or made insane demands you would throw me out on my behind in an instant. That's what I would deserve and that's what I do when this happens here.

My wife answers a certain percentage of email that we receive via the link at the bottom of every page. Not one of you would believe how nasty these email messages can get. Many who have been banned here go to other woodworking forums and post vulgar and insulting comments about me, nothing new here its been happening for many years and my skin has gotten pretty thick. I never allow anyone to be disrespectful towards me in my own house and I am especially quick on the draw when they use my services for free, disrespect our Moderators or are unfriendly to anyone here.

For all of the hours I spend working behind the scenes seven days a week for over 16 years I don't deserve to be harassed, abused or threatened but it happens all to frequently. In spite of the downside I am still here honoring a promise I made in 2005 that I would keep The Creek online as long as I have the support of this Community. If the majority here cannot support SawMill Creek for any reason that's fine with me but don't bash me when its gone. I have owned a server on the Internet continuously since 1995 and the only reason I didn't shut down this server in 2003 when I shut down Hampton Roads Online was because almost everyone here at the time asked me to continue.

I know where we have been, you tell me where we are going. If we have to shutdown so be it, I have kept my promise to all of you and I'm proud of what we have accomplished.
.

[Edwin Santos]

This isn't the Federal Government where some are treated differently than others, there is no ruling class here.

I thought there was a strict no politics rule here! Unless of course it doesn't apply to the ruling class .

Don't get mad please, just a little friendly irony jest.

I've enjoyed this forum, learned some good things. Thank you for keeping it going thus far. Whatever you choose to do, it's your prerogative. I just hope you'll make your decision soon and get on with it.

BTW, I must not have banner ads turned off because I see them at the top of the page. One that keeps coming up is Lee Valley free shipping Feburary 6-20. Today is March 15th so maybe that one needs to be deleted?

[Pete Taran]

Keith,

I'm certainly sympathetic to your plight as no one should take a vow of poverty to provide a service that others enjoy. Having said that, I think the idea to ban anyone without paying is fraught with peril.

I like to think of online forums like bee hives. In a beehive, there is a bee keeper who pays for the pine box that the bees live it. He puts it out in the field, and then buys a starter colony. Once that's in place, he sits back and the bees go forth and collect pollen and bring it back to the hive. This continues and it is largely the bees who do the work and bring back the pollen. The beekeeper of course has to maintain the hive, but the maintenance is far less than the value the bees bring. The bees labor is free.

In this scenario, all the forum users are the bees. They share ideas, thoughts, images, techniques, etc. They make up the community. What you are advocating is to close the entrance to the hive and keep the bees already inside from mingling with the outside world. Bees not willing to pay to get into the hive will get turned away. In nature, what would happen is the non paying bees will find a new hive, and the paying bees would soon start to cannibalize each other until the last one dies of starvation. I posit that this is what will happen to SMC should you do down the pay to be a member road.

It doesn't have to be that way however. I articulated to you in private many ideas which you could use to accomplish payment for the server. I belong to other forums where they run an annual drive to pay for the server and bandwidth. A large thermometer is at the top of every forum page. A group half the size of SMC donates $10,000 in a space of a few days. Real donations in the bank, not just promises. No reason why that couldn't work here. People are generous when asked. People are resentful when taxed.

Further, it would seem you could loosen the reigns of the no commerce clause on SMC. I belong to other forums where for a $100/year, you can be a vendor sponsor and put a single text line in your signature advertising your website. No pictures, just text and a hyperlink. It's not at all onerous and not an nuisance for anyone. You can click it if you are interested, you can ignore it if you want. That's easily another $10-20,000 annually.

I also think that you could rethink the banner strategy. I use BRAVE for my browser, and the way the other forum has implemented their banner ads it is immune to ad blockers. Again, I don't think it is that onerous to see a banner at the top of each page. Advertisers pay a lot annually to be there, and since each banner is an active link, you have the power to demonstrate value to the folks footing the bill. The forum I have in mind uses the same exact software that you do.

I know that your vision is to keep SMC ad and commerce free, but in a world where stuff costs money, and people are not willing to part with that money, something has to change. I don't think most would be bothered by any of those ideas.

At the end of the day, you are in charge, and you make the rules. I just think there are a lot of ways to get what you want while remaining open and free.

With respect,

Pete

PS. I put my money where my mouth is, I have been a contributor since the beginning, and not at the $6/year rate.

[Simon MacGowen]

I like to think of online forums like bee hives.

Pete

PS. I put my money where my mouth is, I have been a contributor since the beginning, and not at the $6/year rate.

I like your analogy, and I also like your business acumen.

Simon

[Kurt Cady]

Keith,

I like to think of online forums like bee hives.

With respect,

Pete

PS. I put my money where my mouth is, I have been a contributor since the beginning, and not at the $6/year rate.

Seconded! All great ideas.

I know I wouldn’t mind in the least seeing a banner ad as a Contributor, seeing signature lines, or any of the other ideas thrown out