Problem with dovetail saw type

[lou Brava]

I need some advice on cross cutting out the pin board waste. I used a Douzki Z saw for the rip but the kerf on the Z saw is so thin my coping saw blade doesn't fit. So I re- sawed down with coping saw but couldn't get it to 90 degrees to make the cut. I'm practice cutting on some 3/4 Ash. The videos I've seen for dove tails seem to focus on layout and prepping the joint. Will a fret saw solve my problem or what the heck am I doing wrong ? I'm also wondering on a coping saws ability to hold a 90 degree clean cross cut cut in 3/4" hardwood. My coping saw work has all been for running and standing trim never used it for anything else.
Thanks

[Derek Cohen]

Iou, a fretsaw may also struggle to travel the fine kerf of a Z-saw. Now, if you were using a Western saw, a fretsaw would be my first choice .... down the kerf and saw square across the baseline.

With the Z-saw, the coping saw actually would be better. To use this, saw diagonally across the pin socket from one corner to the other. Then saw from that corner across the baseline. You have to do two saw cuts, but the aggressive nature of the coping saw blade will do it quicker.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

I just use a decent, SHARP chisel to chop out the waste.....More of an Old School type of thing.....Figured I's STILL need a chisel to clean up after the saw, anyways....just get rid of the "Middleman".....

[lou Brava]

Thanks Derek, maybe I'll try Western style dove tail saw & a fret saw & eliminate the added diagonal cutting.
Steven I like that style & my stuff is very SHARP ! I actually did use a chisel on my first attempt on some 3/4 cherry & it worked OK. After the failed sawing I started banging away at the Ash which is rock friggin hard and figured sawing it was a better way to go.
I'm obviously new to hand working joinery, but not new to being a Neanderthal ! My nick name in school was Link as in "the missing Link"
Thanks guys

[Jack Dover]

To use this, saw diagonally across the pin socket from one corner to the other.

Hey Derek, just fyi, a coping saw (and a fret saw) can actually turn on a point, esp. the one you're using. It's actually very easy to make a cut parallel to the scribe line and then just pare if you can get sufficiently close to a line. Either way, it's a single operation as compared to what's being demoed most often.

[Jack Dover]

I started banging away at the Ash which is rock friggin hard and figured sawing it was a better way to go.

Taking small bites while chiseling is actually going faster than trying to hog off big chunks. Doesn't matter the hardness (or density rather), even mortising is not as ham fisted as it might seem. Besides, the harder the blow - the less control you have (good luck chiseling plumb), the less a tool stays sharp and the less clean joint lines are.

Have a look at Japanese carpenters. They hit firm, but they don't wallop. Or have a look at David Charlesworth mortising video, he holds a chisel with fingers, much like a violin bow. Obviously in something like timberframing a mallet is heavier and there's more energy transmitted, but if we're talking dovetails light and small is the way to go.

[Christopher Wellington]

How thin is the kerf produced by the Z-saw?

I cut dovetails with a Gyokucho 372 and saw the waste with a #7 fret saw blade. The 372 makes a ~.018" kerf and the fret saw is just narrow enough to slip into the kerf and make a 90 degree turn.

[Jack Dover]

How thin is the kerf produced by the Z-saw?

I cut dovetails with a Gyokucho 372 and saw the waste with a #7 fret saw blade. The 372 makes a ~.018" kerf and the fret saw is just narrow enough to slip into the kerf and make a 90 degree turn.

It's about the same thickness. A jeweler saw #7 gets there no problems, but OP's using a coping saw. Tt has thicker blades with lots of set, thicker than 0.018" kerf. There are thin and narrow coping saw blades that might just fit if one is careful. A bit more money, but I sometimes prefer a coping saw because it's more aggressive.

But all these blades can do a 90˚ turn if you know how.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Lou and welcome to the Creek.

3/4" ash is a bit tough to cut with a fret or coping saw. Pushing it into the kerf might ease the path a bit on the way to the baseline. Start turning the saw a bit above the base.

My recollection is Derek has suggested fattening the base line by notching out before starting with a coping or fret saw.

My dovetails have gotten much better since getting to the baseline with fret saw.

Chopping out with a chisel has also worked well for me.

jtk

[Scott Clausen]

I got the Knew fret saw and about the same time started chopping out the waste instead. I have no idea why but it is what it is.

[chris carter]

I can’t help you with the Japanese saw, but I can help with the coping saw. I use a coping saw to cut out the bulk of the waste. You CAN turn a perfect 90 degrees with a regular coping saw; you don’t need a fret saw to do it. The key is that you must be sawing when you turn. So take full strokes and rotate the saw as you do so in ONE SPOT until you are facing the direction you want to go. Then start sawing normally across the wood. How many strokes it takes to get rotated fully around depends on the wood and how thick. In ¾” pine I can usually do it in one push. In ash it might be more like 3 or 4 full back and forth strokes. But you absolutely can do a full 360 just staying in one spot.

[lou Brava]

Thanks guys, more good advice. I like the coping saw help I'm gonna try it tomorrow maybe save me from buying 2 more saws !
Hey Jack, yep finesse & patience is something I lack, "gotta slow down to go fast" I've been told that more than once !

[Mike Burke]

FWIW
I have been gathering my dovetailing tools during the last couple months and practicing dovetails. I have a Knew Fret saw and got some Pegas blades with it. It’s been a struggle since day one with the fret saw. I was wondering what the heck I was doing wrong. Breaking blades and bowing a lot while cutting.

Then I read something about someone using scroll saw blades. I have several kinds of them , so I installed a skip tooth scroll saw bade and that made all the difference from there on. Now it works the way I was expecting it to. The scroll blades are just a little tougher and I’m able to put a little more tension on them and they work great. They’re still thin enough to get in the LN saw kerf.

[Andrew Hughes]

I also use a western style saw the push kind. With a coping saw and Olsen blades. I have some Japanese pullsaws that cannot be sharped. It seems and feels wasteful to me
I think a Dovetail saw that can be sharpened is better.
Good Luck

[Derek Cohen]

Hey Derek, just fyi, a coping saw (and a fret saw) can actually turn on a point, esp. the one you're using. It's actually very easy to make a cut parallel to the scribe line and then just pare if you can get sufficiently close to a line. Either way, it's a single operation as compared to what's being demoed most often.

Jack, I agree with you. There are thinner coping saw blades available from Tools for Working Wood which may make it easier. Still, the problem is that the average coping saw blade is too thick for the kerf of a Japanese saw - it is not just about turning - and so one needs to use a different technique.

Edit: I see that you wrote the same. Not surprised - we generally tend to be on the same page

Regards from Perth

Derek