Handplane courage round 2

[David Sochar]

Mark - What do you want to see? The clean crisp cut surface catches light in a way only a hand planed or scraped surface does. The sander produces a smooth top that has other characteristics different from a cut surface. Neither is better than the other. Both can be Fine Woodwork (non-specific term).

As an (assumed?) amateur, why do you work wood? To give yourself pleasure? Or others?

Ah yes, the self examination begins.....

[Phil Gaudio]

I enjoy your philosophical thoughts Jason. I have a couple reasons for this post… 1. I am soliciting pics of handplane work in a severe raking light similar to mine. Please refrain from critique on my handplane skills until you show me your top in a severe raking light. 2. Why do almost all forum members, even if skilled in handplanes, ultimately finish with sandpaper when submitting their work to a wide audience ( such as our project forum or Fine Woodworking)?. Phil, you had a gorgeous piece a year or two ago in Fine Woodworking. Did that table top see any sandpaper?

Thanks for the compliment! Yes I utilized sandpaper with abandon on that piece, although I will frequently remove machine marks from legs with a plane before sanding. The top, which is the money view, got all kinds of sandpaper followed by PolyX oil/wax finish. If I set up one of my smoothing planes and dial it in just right, I can get an absolutely beautiful result. However, I can get at least as good or better with sandpaper. I think its something that you have to experiment with so you get a feel for the process either way. On the small end tables I posted above, you can feel the plane tracks (although in my defense they are minor), and that gives it just the extra "hand built" feel, for what its worth..

[Mark Rainey]

Mark - What do you want to see? The clean crisp cut surface catches light in a way only a hand planed or scraped surface does. The sander produces a smooth top that has other characteristics different from a cut surface. Neither is better than the other. Both can be Fine Woodwork (non-specific term).

As an (assumed?) amateur, why do you work wood? To give yourself pleasure? Or others?

Ah yes, the self examination begins.....

Good questions David, I want to see the best piece I can make. I work wood for my pleasure, my family, and when the opportunity arises, others. When my piece is being viewed by other woodworkers, I want to do the best I can. There is more pressure when other woodworkers inspect my work.

I guessed right with Phil. When playing with the "big boys" and submitting to Fine Woodworking, he admits resorting to sandpaper. And he is very skilled with handplanes as evidenced by the earlier fine piece he posted. Being that I am on a roll, I would guess Derek, guru of planes of all types ( bevel up, bevel down, high angle, tight mouth, close chipbreaker, razor sharpness ) scrapers of various types ( flexible spring steel, homemade rigid thick metal etc ) used sandpaper on his lovely curved chest of drawers published in Fine Woodworking

[Warren Mickley]

Some of this is more like sophistry than philosophy. You can’t just sit in an armchair and make stuff up. Getting a good surface with a smoothing plane is much faster than sanding. And it pays dividends with subsequent finishing steps as well.

Likewise, precision is not difficult with hand work and skill.

[Rafael Herrera]

There were no planing marks on the top surface, the bottom surface of the table was left somewhat rough.

I'm not sure what machine precision has to do with having a surface finished with a smoother. As I said above, I don't care to sand flat surfaces, I don't want to deal with the dust or the noise of electric sanders.

I also do not associate using mostly hand tools with a final product that will be crooked or rough because machines were not involved. Why would you draw that conclusion?

[Jason Buresh]

There were no planing marks on the top surface, the bottom surface of the table was left somewhat rough.

I'm not sure what machine precision has to do with having a surface finished with a smoother. As I said above, I don't care to sand flat surfaces, I don't want to deal with the dust or the noise of electric sanders.

I also do not associate using mostly hand tools with a final product that will be crooked or rough because machines were not involved. Why would you draw that conclusion?

I should have just kept to myself.

The OP said he is having difficulty getting a near perfect surface with hand planes and showed a superior surface left by his sander. He is now asking others who use hand planes to set up a light and prove they don't leave marks before accepting their opinions.

I'm not saying that one should get sloppy or careless using hand tools and leave surfaces rough or crooked or that hand tools are not capable of precision.

My point is if you are demanding a surface that is 100% free of any evidence that it was ever touched by a hand plane, and you go through the trouble of setting up a light to expose and eliminate the marks left by said hand plane, well then a hand plane isn't the right tool for the job and the OP should continue using his sander.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I make no particular claims about possessing any particular level of skill with hand planes, but here’s an example with extreme raking sunlight on a freshly smooth planed piece of somewhat stringy edge-glued aspen purchased years ago from the green BORG.
88C370BA-3B24-427E-A5F0-BE875D61BAB1.jpg
The grain direction is inconsistent between the individual boards on this piece, but with a close set cap iron and sharp enough iron that didn’t seem to be much of a problem. Other woods would likely be more challenging.

The shavings show some of the stringy character.
0C07FCCB-2951-4B68-9DDF-7A2E856A6028.jpg

For what it’s worth, I agree with Warren about the time spent finishing: with a planed finish I spend much less time getting a similar end result. I do not sand prior to finishing.

[Rafael Herrera]

The OP said he is having difficulty getting a near perfect surface with hand planes and showed a superior surface left by his sander. He is now asking others who use hand planes to set up a light and prove they don't leave marks before accepting their opinions.

I'm not saying that one should get sloppy or careless using hand tools and leave surfaces rough or crooked or that hand tools are not capable of precision.

My point is if you are demanding a surface that is 100% free of any evidence that it was ever touched by a hand plane, and you go through the trouble of setting up a light to expose and eliminate the marks left by said hand plane, well then a hand plane isn't the right tool for the job and the OP should continue using his sander.

If you are talking about the tracks left by the corner of the smoothing plane iron, this is what I have done to deal with that: re-sharpen (by hand) the iron applying extra pressure on the corners to impart a small camber and/or round off the corners. Depending on: (1) the depth of cut, (2) the amount of camber, and (3) the lateral adjustment, one can create track marks with the smoother. Adjusting those variables is how I erase/prevent those marks.

I went through that process with the cherry coffee table and made sure no track marks were left. I used a flashlight.

20220919_003822.jpg

A prepared and fitted cap iron will mitigate tear out and you can get a surface that can reflect an image, like a mirror, if you sight the surface at a shallow angle. You won't get that effect on a sanded surface. I like that finish, I wouldn't claim it's a perfect surface. Also, I've not measured it, but I'm pretty sure finishing with a smoother is faster than going through a progression of 3 or more sandpaper grit.

None of these stuff is new, nor I came up with it. I've seen all these described here and there in this and other forums. I'm skeptical of opinions that favor buying premium planes or other gimmicks about high bed angles, close mouths, etc.

A non-defective Bailey pattern plane is a very good plane. During the cherry table making, when it came to cutting it to the final length, I cut the ends with a handheld circular saw. At first I used a low angle block plane with an A2 cutter, the edge kept chipping and I was getting track marks, took a while to get a clean surface. Then I switched to a smoother from the rack, it took minutes to get the result shown in the picture, from the rough cut on the left to the finished surface on the right. It was not a special plane, just a well set up one. Anyone can do this, most of the planes out there can be made to work well.

20220925_231019.jpg

I hope the OP re-tune his planes (if that's what they need) and give them another chance.

Rafael

[Jason Buresh]

If you are talking about the tracks left by the corner of the smoothing plane iron, this is what I have done to deal with that: re-sharpen (by hand) the iron applying extra pressure on the corners to impart a small camber and/or round off the corners. Depending on: (1) the depth of cut, (2) the amount of camber, and (3) the lateral adjustment, one can create track marks with the smoother. Adjusting those variables is how I erase/prevent those marks.

I went through that process with the cherry coffee table and made sure no track marks were left. I used a flashlight.

20220919_003822.jpg

A prepared and fitted cap iron will mitigate tear out and you can get a surface that can reflect an image, like a mirror, if you sight the surface at a shallow angle. You won't get that effect on a sanded surface. I like that finish, I wouldn't claim it's a perfect surface. Also, I've not measured it, but I'm pretty sure finishing with a smoother is faster than going through a progression of 3 or more sandpaper grit.

None of these stuff is new, nor I came up with it. I've seen all these described here and there in this and other forums. I'm skeptical of opinions that favor buying premium planes or other gimmicks about high bed angles, close mouths, etc.

A non-defective Bailey pattern plane is a very good plane. During the cherry table making, when it came to cutting it to the final length, I cut the ends with a handheld circular saw. At first I used a low angle block plane with an A2 cutter, the edge kept chipping and I was getting track marks, took a while to get a clean surface. Then I switched to a smoother from the rack, it took minutes to get the result shown in the picture, from the rough cut on the left to the finished surface on the right. It was not a special plane, just a well set up one. Anyone can do this, most of the planes out there can be made to work well.

20220925_231019.jpg

I hope the OP re-tune his planes (if that's what they need) and give them another chance.

Rafael

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the OP also claims the lines he's seeing are not tracks.

Even if you round over the edges of an iron, the iron still has to cut into the wood to make a shaving. Even with the lightest of cut and the utmost care, the iron still has to cut to a depth deeper than the surface and will, at least in theory, leave a "shoulder" from a cut. Even if that "shoulder" is .002 of an inch and is virtually undetectable by feel and eye, it may still show up under the OP's light apparently. That is why you try to take overlapping strokes and minimal depth of cut when smoothing to minimize this.

Which is again why if the OP is worried about someone taking a special light to his project to check for hand plane marks he should just use a sander.

I personally like a hand planed surface. I hate the noise, dust, and vibration that sanders produce and the amount of time a plane saves me from having to sand through multiple grits and clean all the fine dust from shop is well worth a minor little line that only shows up in a fancy light in my opinion. Its up to the OP to decide what works best for him and leave it at that.

[Mark Rainey]

I should have just kept to myself.

Jason, I welcome your valuable perspective and I thank you for your input

[Mark Rainey]

I hope the OP re-tune his planes (if that's what they need) and give them another chance.

Rafael

Thanks for your pics and input. Us Neanders do not give up easily!

[Mark Rainey]

I make no particular claims about possessing any particular level of skill with hand planes, but here’s an example with extreme raking sunlight on a freshly smooth planed piece of somewhat stringy edge-glued aspen purchased years ago from the green BORG.
88C370BA-3B24-427E-A5F0-BE875D61BAB1.jpg
The grain direction is inconsistent between the individual boards on this piece, but with a close set cap iron and sharp enough iron that didn’t seem to be much of a problem. Other woods would likely be more challenging.

The shavings show some of the stringy character.
0C07FCCB-2951-4B68-9DDF-7A2E856A6028.jpg

For what it’s worth, I agree with Warren about the time spent finishing: with a planed finish I spend much less time getting a similar end result. I do not sand prior to finishing.

Thanks for your pics Michael. I do see some subtle evidence of plane use - I do not think it can get any less than that and I am sure that will result in a beautiful finished surface.

[Mark Rainey]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the OP also claims the lines he's seeing are not tracks.

Thank you Jason. That is my claim.
Which is again why if the OP is worried about someone taking a special light to his project to check for hand plane marks he should just use a sander.

Unfortunately it is more complex than that for many woodworkers Jason. It is very likely that a hand plane finish can look just as good ( or even better in the opinion of a few ) for most pieces. And as Neanders we love our hand planes, the swoosh of shavings, the lack of dust, the history of the tool in the hand, etc. But I theorize almost all woodworkers, even Neanders, will weaken near the end of the smoothing process, and grab for the sandpaper WHEN their work will be scrutinized by other woodworkers with a discerning eye. Phil is expert with hand plane use and his first piece is beautiful. But he admits that he thinks he can do a little bit better with sandpaper and when finishing his spectacular table shown in Fine Woodworker he did use sandpaper. In my hand plane courage forum last year Charles Guest summarized things nicely. The state of the art for most show pieces involves sandpaper, right or wrong.

[Rafael Herrera]

I don't know if there's a difference between the raking light he used and a flashlight, but if he was seeing scalloping marks, then my guess is that he was taking shavings that were too thick. I'm just guessing, I don't think I run into that kind of problem as I reduce the thickness of the shavings as I get close to my final smoothing passes. I also do not worry too much about having to get full shavings, since if one puts a moderate camber then one may feel tempted to take thick shavings and create grooves

This is just a test piece of very dry oak, about 3" wide. It tears out if you retract the chipbreaker. With a sharp plane and fine shavings you can get it like this. It looks flat and feels flat, I can't see scalloping marks.

20221015_145650.jpg

Listen, I do not presume to be an authority on this, there are probably several ways to achieve a nice flat finish. This is what I do to my flat surfaces, for better or worse .

Here are a few examples of more hand planed pieces I made in the shop. This one is a two piece laminated mahogany little board, just a test piece, before and after oil finish.

20221005_235918.jpg20221010_234604.jpg

A crotch walnut oilstone box lid, with an oil finish.

20221010_234638.jpg

At the very least, with small pieces, the plane works well.

On large table tops, perhaps it is not as straightforward.

Rafael

[Jason Buresh]

Jason, I welcome your valuable perspective and I thank you for your input

And after all that I guess I never gave you what you were asking for. Here a piece of maple that would be considered ready for finish in my shop.

IMG_20221015_154032968.jpgIMG_20221015_153938805.jpgIMG_20221015_154040172.jpgIMG_20221015_154005968.jpg