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Thread: A Personal Question? How much do you charge?

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Franklin, TN
    Posts
    68
    I'm full time building kitchen/bath cabinets, ent. centers, etc. A couple of things I'd add.

    1. Shop rate example:

    Shop A: $65/hr., production pocket hole machine, face frame table, widebelt sander, multi-spindle boring machine, large variety of shaper and molder knives, spray booth with heater make-up air, etc.

    Shop B: $45/hr., kreg pocket hole jig, vise clamps to assemble FF, belt sander, cuts profiles using multiple passes on router table and buys crown (ever price 4 1/4" cherry crown) drills shelf pin holes with a drill and jig, sprays less durable finish or one that requires longer dry times, etc.

    Quality of work equal, Shop A is the bargin even though they are charging $20/hr more. On site work is different because the playing field is mostly level.

    2. Spend your time building for people that find value in what you can deliever. Don't try to compete with cabinets from HD or a desk from Pottery Barn. I've had the chance to work with very high end builders if I could bring down my price to work with their project. While it's tempting to do, why cut my profit and lower the bar for future work.

    brent

  2. #62
    Rob, is your 14 month waiting list continually growing? If so, you are probably not charging enough. In your situation I would increase my pricing until my waiting list grew at around the same rate as my work output. By charging more you will certainly slow the rate of jobs you acquire but that is a good thing as long as enough jobs continue to roll in. Finding the balance between supply and demand is the key to optimal pricing.

    Best Regards.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    520
    I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the "flinch method" of pricing. You say, "normally a job like this would cost $X". If the client flinches, you add "...but for you...". If no flinch, "...however, this job is a lot more complicated...".

    Cary

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    556
    There's a thread from a year and a half ago. Haven't seen Dev post in a while.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Staunton, Virginia
    Posts
    379
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Hoyt View Post
    But that same work in Benton Falls, ME or Charlo, MT will cost a considerably different amount.
    Even though I have driven past it, I don't think I have ever been to Benton Falls, Maine but I have been to Charlo, MT MANY times and I agree- location determines pricing.

    (Andy, if you have been to Charlo, did you ever go to Tiny's Blind Pig?)

    Rick

  6. #66
    Situation dictates. This is probably the surest rule of pricing. I try to be fair, and then double it. To be honest, I've very, very rarely walked away from a job feeling like I charged too much and my prices are on the high side. Dave Avery's points(and others I was too lazy to read them all), should be really taken to heart about pricing. Pricing is about value and nothing else. The customer's perception of what you are providing and how much they are willing to pay for what you provide, will dictate every time. I create value through my quality, my repoire with clients, and my professionalism. Do they want a $500 invoice on a napkin or a $5000 invoice that is professional? That whole 'build it and they will come' is entirely true. I believe that if you believe in your product and constantly strive to improve it, the work will find you. This is when your pricing will shake out, and you'll find success, regardless of what numbers we throw around for what we charge. I've spent a week on a $500 project and on the flip side can make 2-3 times that in a day. I don't believe there is a true answer to your question, but I think every woodworker that is self employed and does at the very least decent work should be charging $30 - $100/hour. You've got to remember that a lot of hours that you're working aren't necessarily billable so this doesn't transfer to a straight 40 hours times your hourly. Time to make drawings, do layout, give bids, drive to jobsites, unload tools, invoice, etc, etc.... - these are all varying factors on top of your local pricing scene and are among many other variables.

    Sorry for the ramble; in short, charge as much as you can. If you're not getting turned down at all, you're too cheap.

  7. #67
    I guess that I'm in a little bit different boat then most folks. I do just about everything so to speak.
    If I come to your job site (this can be anything from framing a house to finish work) it will cost you $20.00 an hour IF I can pick up my tool bag and head to the site.
    If I have to use ANY tools that don't fit in the bag the price jumps to $25.00 an hour.
    If I have to take any of my power tools, saws etc. the price jumps to $30.00 an hour plus the cost of blades etc.
    Shop time is based upon $40.00 an hour plus material and includes the use of any tool I have avaliable.
    I bill material at cost.
    Last edited by Mike Jones NM; 10-11-2007 at 11:49 PM.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    1,934
    Realistically, the shop rate varies in proportion to how busy the shop is. Charge enough to make a living, or afford the next tool, or whatever. One of the best pieces of advice I got when starting out in this trade was to charge based on what I need to make, not based on what someone else is charging. I know that this can get tricky if you are in a competitive bidding situation. But always be aware that too many people who work wood are willing to underprice their services, to the detriment of themselves and the rest of us. Too bad they don't have more business classes in high school.
    JR

  9. #69
    A bit off topic but generally speaking, how many years of experience does one generally have before they can make money woodworking? I know that is very general and it will likely be different for different people but what would you say is the minimum experience necessary to do what you guys do? I'm just curious and and also curious to know if your prices went up as you gained experience or have they always been about the same based on the market.

    Thanks.

    John

  10. #70
    I love Grant's flinch method. And want to second J.R.'s comments on charging what you need to make, not based on what others are charging. I attended a class early on at one of the woodworking shows(a JLC Live show) on the business side and one of the things I took away that has saved me a lot of money over the years(almost as good as making money ) is to expect people to turn down your bids. One presenter said that if he was getting more than 10% of his bids, he raised his pricing. While that is a little extreme to me, the principal is valid. I've saved myself a lot of headaches not trying to outguess the next guy and get every job - I charge what its worth for ME to do the job and get it or don't.
    To answer part of your question John about making more as experience grows or about the same, the answer for me has been 'both'. My hourly average has risen as my skills have grown as a craftsman and businessman, but sometimes I make about the same on a bid or hourly as I would have a few years ago. The difference now is that I am more efficient, so that the money I made over 3 days or 2 weeks, I can more frequently make in a day or two.
    I love this topic as its been one of the greatest challenges for me as a growing craftsman/businessperson. If you're frustrated, don't worry, I think you should be. It has been more challenging to me than learning curved stairs or other difficult aspects of the job itself.
    I think ultimately you've got to play around with it a bit. Lose a few jobs. Have a few guys tell you, "Does that include the moon?" and you calmly tell them, "No, thats labor only".... Its a wonderful hair-pulling learning experience, but one that only gets better(I think) by being confident and pushing your boundaries once in a while.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Shiloh, Illinois
    Posts
    543

    I love this thread!

    I am a new woodworker and I dont have all the skills of the veteran. I build furniture. I do good work and I wont let a piece out the door until i know that it is 100% acceptable. I cant stand the idea of one of my pieces having a defect. (i cant get referrals or a clientele that way.)

    because i am new and somewhat limited in my skills, i only charge $10-30 an hour and materials plus 10-20%. My charged hours include trips to buy materials, gas, loading/unloading and storing materials and all the random other little things associated with the prospective job that DO eat MY time. I am not slow though either. I dont dilly dally in the shop and I dont waste time oogling at the store either.

    I get quotes on all the materials before i estimate or buy and include these quotes in the estimate. I walk the client through the plans/designs and materials estimate and i allot 15-25% more time than i need for unexpected things. this comes in handy in the end. I can take the extra few hours to make sure everything is just right if i need. I only charge for the hours worked, not the estimated hours and i explain this to the client as well.

    When my skills are at the professional level and i have a few more really nice tools, i will raise my rates and i will accept more complex jobs. Currently i limit my jobs to what i know i can do well. I dont go outside of my skills unless I have the tools and the time to learn the new skill.

    well,

    its been a pleasure reading this thing,

    Dan

  12. #72

    Fascinating variety

    It's really interesting to see how people handle this issue. Thanks for sharing. It's also interesting to a Brit just how squeamish americans are about talking about income; I've learned over the years that most of you merkins would rather admit your sexual problems than your salary.

    When I was doing a masters in Industrial Design we were actually taught a bit about running a business. Let's see if I can remember enough to make my tutors not wince:-
    a) be honest about all the numbers. fooling yourself is... foolish
    b) be aware of what the job is competing with - ie what could you realistically earn working for someone or at some other job and what the job gives back to you
    c) work out what you *have* to make to be able to stay in business; be obsessively complete
    d) now make a plausible estimate of how much of your time is going to be billable. Sadly, no one ever explained to me how to get that right...
    e) divide c by d to work out the absolute minimum you must charge per hr/day/week/whatever
    f) now work out by whatever means of market research you able to carry out how much you might be able to get away with charging; compare to other equivalent practitioners, consider locale, customer base etc.
    g) if f does not handily exceed e, try to find another location, occupation, or think of some way to improve your skill levels so as to raise your value for f.

    Sounds to me like a lot of people that have posted so far would make my tutor smile. What amazed me was the number of fellow students that actually objected to the idea of "charge what the market will bear" and thought they should just charge enough to get by, as if charging for their (supposed) skill was immoral. It's just as well I never fell into that trap or I would not have been able to survive the collapse of my main customer base for 3 years...
    Smile. It worries the other guy.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Benton Falls, Maine
    Posts
    5,480
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hubbard View Post
    (Andy, if you have been to Charlo, did you ever go to Tiny's Blind Pig?) Rick
    Was there in 1968 or 69 when we spent time with Bud Cheff. Don't recall any pigs - blind or otherwise.
    Only the Blue Roads

  14. #74
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Summit, New Jersey
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by David Pettibone View Post
    Even though I only do laminate countertops for a living, I do a few things different than most guys in my area.

    In the beginning, it was approximately $30 a linear foot for tops, depending on how many feet. I add up all the inches, divide by 12 and multiply by 30. Tear-out of old tops and sink removal are different rates. Then I went to saying that I don't price by the linear foot, I price by the job. Most customers want to compare what the other guy charges and then say he's cheaper than you. I got 3 estimates and this guy beat you by $125, can you come down. My answer is always a kind "no I can't do that". I'm not high, he's low. My price is fair for the work that I am doing for you based off my materials, time, and yes, quality of work. You won't get burned edges and radius corners you can push in and out with your thumb.

    I have too LARGE albums with pictures of many, many jobs I have done and that alone helps tremendously.

    When people ask, what do you mean price by the job, I say that I figure out my materials, based off the kitchen measurements, and come up with a fair figure for them and for me based off my time and materials.

    Example: I qouted a job $1900 a year and half ago. Two other companies were within $150 of my bid. The gentleman called me a couple days later and said someone underbid you by $700!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I told him a builder would not get it that cheap from me and there is no way I could do anything with that price.
    Well, the company in question took my samples that I had left with the homeowner to look over for a few days(obviously, they qouted after my qoute). I said, no problem, I'll pick them up after they're done with the job, if you don't mind. He was so happy that I was willing to come look at their work after I didn't get the job, I thought he was going to come through the phone and hug me!!! Well..........3 days after the top was complete, I go to look at their work. I told him I would be honest and that I get no satisfaction from putting down anyone else's work. If it's good, I'll tell ya.
    Well the seam at the sink was open enough that I could almost put a dime in it. They used white caulk on a brownish colored top. The edges of the laminate were burned on almost every linear foot of countertop in the kithen. The radius corners flexed in and out. Here's the kicker. They routed all the laminate off with a straight bit and I swear they didn't file any of it. You could take your finger nails and slightly lift up the edges any where you tried. That part, I didn't have the heart to say anything about to the homeowner. The burned edges (which they asked "what is that"), the open seam and the caulk I did tell them about.

    This thread was about how much guys charge for their work, and Dev, I hope I have not gone off topic too much. Although I would never ever mention another company by name to any customer, I do tell a quick version of this situation, one of many, I have had in the past. I only do this with a few certain customers who start asking about price a lot or quality of work compared to others. I also tell them there are many good fabricators out there, but there are some bad ones too. Don't just go by price for foot. Decide if you feel comfortable with me and what I've said and showed you during my estimate.

    The gentleman with the $700 difference said "how can he be so much lower?". I said there's a reason for it, I can tell you that. I also said, if he was that good why wouldn't his qoutes be more in line with every else's. Doesn't he want to make $700 more? The company in question doesn't have to worry about referrals, they will always get phone calls from people who don't know their work and then they will get a lot of those jobs because a certain percentage of people are always looking for the lowest price.

    Price by the job (if you can) and don't be shy about your work. Pictures help alot and so do referrals (the most powerful business tool you have). I almost forgot. I was told recently that the company in question closed down and opened up under another name. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Thanks for reading and God Bless you if you made it this far!

    David
    Most people in my neck of the woods probably would've given the above mentioned coutertop fabricator a real tough time when it came to the check, though they would certainly have been partly responsible for the poor quality of work. In the end, you get what you pay for, if you're lucky.
    Visit Peercon.com

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Poconos, Pa
    Posts
    125
    What amazed me was the number of fellow students that actually objected to the idea of "charge what the market will bear" and thought they should just charge enough to get by, as if charging for their (supposed) skill was immoral.

    To Tim's above statement I'd like to add: When you under-charge for your work you are not only hurting yourself, you are hurting all your fellow woodworkers trying to make a decent living (especially in your geographic area).

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