Sharpening frustration - I need a one-size-fits-all method

[Curt Putnam]

All FWIW - When I first got serious about sharpening & honing some years ago, I bought a Worksharp 3000. With that I was able get my first workably sharp edges. Then, knowing what sharp was I read & experimented some. Managed to overheat some chisels before I had read enough. At the WIA in Pasadena I bought a set of PM-V11 chisels and some Blue Spruce paring chisels. That made me decide to buy a good set of stones so I went and bought the fabled 3 + the Atoma 400 from Stu. If you define sharpening as what happens up to 1000 grit and honing as grits higher >= 1000, then the set has me covered for honing. I have since purchased an 8K diamond, a 100 diamond and a 220 waterstone. Haven't had to grind my good chisels yet but I have used the stones on some real beaters. From all of this I conclude that I will use the WS3000 for grinding on all but the good chisels or plane blades but I mostly keep the leather disc in it coated with the LV green compound. Power stropping produces a great edge faster than any other method, IMO. I will use diamonds or oilstones for working carving tools.

I have a 1 x 42" belt sander that I keep loaded with a leather belt and green LV compound. It's great for knives and knife shaped objects. One of these days (yeah, right) I'm going to build a 2" slow speed, horizontal belt grinder/sander (< 1000 SFPM) and set it up to use Tormek jigs.

I have the Veritas MKII jig and the cambered roller. Bought a Kell jig before they came out with the narrow blade holder. I need to use a jig because I have what is called essential tremors in my hands (shaky hands) which is why I can't freehand nor use a bench grinder very well.

In your situation I would add an 8K stone and a strop. Use that setup for a while and then you will, sooner or later, decide that something else is better. We all do. I've described one man's continuing journey in the world of sharpening. I hope maybe it helps.

[David Bassett]

... I think that sharpening is one of those things that has way too many options for the "thinking" woodworker and is in danger of paralysis-by-analysis.

+1 to that.

I think the single thing that helped my sharpening most was a comment by Mike Siemsen, on his Naked Woodworker DVD, where he said something like, "... poorly sharpened is a lot better than dull and you'll do better next time...." He was talking about saws, but the comment resonated with me and helped me get beyond the "analysis paralysis" I was fighting. You seem to be in the same boat. (Not that I claim to be a good sharpener. Yet!)

I think there is another real issue that may be affecting this discussion, touching up an edge is very different than the initial sharpening needed for a new or damaged tool. I think a lot of experienced sharpeners talk about the former and many beginners get frustrated because they, starting with new, damaged, or severely dull tools can't sharpen with the described ease. Once an edge is "right", laying the bevel on a stone free hand and making a few passes at each grit to touch up an edge is very little work. Maybe using a guide and expecting to take longer to get to that first good edge is where the OP is right now? Anyway, don't beat yourself up and just practice.

[Trevor Goodwin]

As far as flat with the water stones go, I might be in the minority, but I just don't worry that much about it. I definitely don't flatten every time I use a stone. If it gets bad I have a diamond stone I use to flatten the water stone. I used to try to use wet/dry sandpaper on glass and that was a huge PITA. But with the diamond stone it is really easy and quick. I agree with some of the criticism that water stones are messy, but it is manageable. As far as rust goes, I just wipe my tools a few times with an oily rag after sharpening and have never had an issue.

Just about every vintage oil-stone I've seen is dished out, but craftsmen were still getting good results with them. I think Paul Sellers has a post on his blog about the modern overemphasis on stone flatness. In my experience a water stone that is out of flatness only causes problems when flattening the back of a chisel or plane iron. The bevel on a chisel has such a small surface area relative to the stone that undulations of a stone are still flat locally. The key is to sharpen free hand and use as much of the stone as possible, avoiding back-and-forth motions in the one line which creates a sharp trench. I have not found small gouges in a stone (usually caused by lack of concentration) to cause problems either, as the bevel will skip over these spots.

When it comes to flattening I have good results on my Naniwa plates using the Norton flattening stone, which is just a flat chunk of coarse silicon carbide. It is a lot cheaper than diamond plates and should last a very long time because it is friable, unlike diamond plates. I have used my DMT X-coarse diamond plate in the past for flattening and it works well too, but after doing a few stones I found that it lost its "edge" and takes longer to flatten now.

[Jim Koepke]

Water stones probably won't work for you unless you have a sink handy!

There is not a sink or running water in my shop. There is a plastic storage tub approximately 6X8X10 for soaking, a spray bottle for spritzing and a 1 gallon milk jug for more water. Not sure I would want to pour slurry down my drain. We have a septic system and I know it would take time, but I wouldn't want to fill it up with grit and steel.

jtk

[Christian Thompson]

When it comes to flattening I have good results on my Naniwa plates using the Norton flattening stone, which is just a flat chunk of coarse silicon carbide. It is a lot cheaper than diamond plates and should last a very long time because it is friable, unlike diamond plates. I have used my DMT X-coarse diamond plate in the past for flattening and it works well too, but after doing a few stones I found that it lost its "edge" and takes longer to flatten now.

I've noticed that my diamond plate has been losing some of its bite as well. But it's been going for a few years and still seems like it has a lot of life left in it. Good suggestion on the flattening stone. That looks like a good alternative once my diamond plate finally gives up.

[Jim Koepke]

I think there is another real issue that may be affecting this discussion, touching up an edge is very different than the initial sharpening needed for a new or damaged tool.

This may be the point of confusion for many new to the realm sharpening.

In my shop there is a 4 foot hunk of granite with PSA backed abrasive paper at 360 grit for those blades that need to be restored. This is often done with my makeshift rolling blade holder. It is pretty quick and a blade can get pretty warm on this.

There are some coarser stones in my shop. For anything coarser than my 1000 stone abrasive paper seems to be less hassle for me. My Veritas Mk.II Power Sharpening Has 80 grit if something really needs a lot of material removed.

Most of the time my chisel blades are maintained on the 4000 & 8000 stones. Occasionally if an edge chips or hits a knot it is touched up on the 1000 stone.

My plane blades may go longer in the bigger planes. A smoother with a dull blade is more noticeable than a dull blade in a jointer or jack. They usually get cleaned up with the 1000 grit stone before finishing on the finer stones.

In my case this changes during the times when it is below freezing in my shop. Then it all happens on oil stones.

Since the OP already has water stones I do not want to bring more confusion into play.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Most often if I can't get a blade sharp it is due to a wear bevel on the back of the blade.

I would grind the primary bevel using your guide and the sandpaper, get something like 25 or 30 degrees. Grind it back to the point where you are past the wear bevel in the blade.

Remove the burr.

Micro bevel the blade at 5 more degrees using the 1k/4K stones.


Use guides, get the thing right, then worry about free handing when you know what looks right for an angle. If I'm totally lost on a blade, I use the guide to straighten things out then I go back to freehand.

[Dave Parkis]

To the OP; I think you are absolutely correct in that there are myriad opinions as to what's the best way. IME, they all work. I started with scary sharp and it worked, but I was going through sandpaper at an unbelievable rate. From there, I went to a set of 1K/4K/8K Norton stones and they worked too. Based on the list of what you have, I think you have almost everything you need and I'd make the following suggestions to you: 1- Only use the sandpaper for creating bevels and only use the pull stroke on sandpaper. Also, I think you'll have much better luck using the wet/dry sandpaper from an automotive supply house. 2- if you don't have the new attachment for your MK II, I suspect you'll find the MK II less than stellar with chisels. I have the MK II and I use that for plane irons and an Eclipse style for chisels. 3- Add a finer stone for your final honing. If you don't want to make that investment without being sure you need it, maybe there's someone close enough to you that you could "demo" a finer grit stone. 4- Give it a go. The worst thing that can happen is that you don't get a good edge initially. If that happens, try to figure out why you aren't getting a burr. If you are getting a burr at each step, it has to be somewhat sharp and that's a relative term. Good Luck!!

[david charlesworth]

Patrick,

Yes indeed. That was a few years ago !!

David

[Stewie Simpson]

David. You are indeed full of surprises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Benedict

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Charlesworth

[david charlesworth]

And the Abbey is not far away.

I think google gets to the woodworking career quite quickly.

Best wishes, David Charlesworth

[Kees Heiden]

I think we managed to scare off a sharpening newby once again. Mike hasn't replied yet, probably because he is hiding somewhere.

[Derek Cohen]

STOP with all the recommendations for more sharpening media!

\it seems that you already have all you need, it is just the method which is eluding you.

.................

Best wishes,
David

EXACTLY!!!

Mike, I suggest that you get hold of David Charlesworth's DVDs on sharpening. It may not be the method that you follow in a few years, however David has such a clear explanation of what you need to do to create a sharp edge, that you will understand how to use the sharpening tools you already have (which are sufficient).

You need to understand what constitutes a sharp edge; how to use your waterstones and honing guide; and how to maintain your equipment. You do not appear to know any of this.

I will repeat what David has stated - what you have is sufficient for sharp edges, sharp enough to do most woodworking tasks. You just need to know how to get there with it.

Regards from Perth (back home)

Derek

[george wilson]

Someone said that "diamond stones are flat,don't let anyone tell you they aren't." Well,I'LL tell you that some of them AREN'T! At least,not flat enough to lap your block plane flat with!! They are certainly flat enough to sharpen your plane iron and chisels with.

HOWEVER,I wanted to get a REAL flat diamond stone that was a steel plate,blanchard ground(old table saws and jointers were Blanchard ground,leaving large,circular swirls in them: Blanchard grinding is the cheapest and fastest method of finishing cast iron surfaces,but it is NOT a really accurate grinding method. These days,your new machines will have smooth,perfectly straight and VERY FINE table surfaces on them. They use huge grinding wheels as wide as the surfaces they are grinding. The tables of those "Saw Stop" saws are beautiful to behold.)

Anyhow,if you got through that last paragraph, I bought a stone that I think must have been crudely milled rather than ground. The blasted thing was sold in vacuum sucked down plastic,so it was impossible to accurately get a steel rule onto it. Hard even with the plastic OFF,the diamonds hold the steel rule up off of the stone. So,It's still difficult to see if the "stone" is flat,unless you have a keen and practiced eye(Which I do). So,the stone I bought wasn't very flat after I got the wrapper off and examined it. SO,back it went. I finally got one of those steel plate stones that was REASONABLY flat. My PLASTIC stones with a THIN steel plate with diamonds on them are flatter than the solid steel ones. Though,I bought an ATOMA steel plate type diamond stone from a member here,and it seems better quality than the other steel plate stones as far as flatness is concerned. Though I don't see any advantage in arranging the diamonds in little "diamond(as in a deck of cards) shapes. It just cuts down on the number of diamonds present on the plate. I just use it in the kitchen,and it makes a knife more than sharp enough for cutting food. My craftsman wife nearly fully cut off 1/16" of one of her fingers with our LV Japanese knife thus sharpened to a micro serrated edge with the Atoma.

[George Wall]

I'll start by saying I'm a rank beginner at this whole sharpening thing, as hand tool woodworking is a relatively new hobby for me. So I cannot offer advice, only my perspective instead. So my apologies in advance if you are well past the points I'm about to share. The good and bad news of the internet, YouTube, etc. is that there is a wealth of information on sharpening out there. Unfortunately, the information available is often conflicting, or is sometimes incomplete, which makes it difficult to figure out what works, etc. I found that part of the confusion is that there are 3 aspects to sharpening: flattening the back, establishing the primary bevel, and honing. And some of the various YouTube videos and internet articles tend to either gloss over one of these aspects, or worse, use the terms interchangeably. The authors of the videos and articles often describe what works best for them after so many years of woodworking. However, what works best for them may not be ideal for a beginner who's struggling to even learn what sharp really means. Finally, there are numerous debates on various open forums, many of which go into nuances of the finer points of sharpening that may not matter to us mortals. The result was that I would try various methods, often incorrectly applying the underlying technique, and found myself getting frustrated at various times (still do, but less so now).

I have similar set up as yours, except I have a DMT extra coarse and coarse diamond stones for flattening the waterstones. I also used the Diamond stones for flattening the backs of the blades and chisels, and for establishing a primary bevel. I also have an 8K grit Norton stone, and use an Eclipse honing guide. I briefly tried freehand, but I found I could not easily "lock my arms" into the right position without confusing myself, so I bought the guide.

What really helped me was that I purchased David Charlesworth's streaming video on plane blade sharpening on the Lie Nielsen website (LN also sells DVD's of the same). David goes through some great lengths of explaining the technique and the reasons behind each step. At the beginning, David shows the tools he uses for sharpening, but he also gives some alternatives to his setup in case you don't have his exact set of stones. Very straightforward to watch, review, and follow along, as his instructions are geared for the beginner. And it's helped me immensely. I plan to buy his video on chisel sharpening soon, as my first purchase was one of my better uses of $25.

The advantage is that by following the Charlesworth video, it gave me an initial approach that I could practice over and over, with repeatable and (hopefully) improving results. I know there are videos available from other authors others as well that many regard as excellent resources (Rob Cosman, for example). But for now I'm trying to stick with one approach to avoid confusing myself all over again, which many folks here will tell you is fairly critical. I may (or may not) tweak things as I get more experienced. I should also disclose that I learn much better from watching a video than by reading a book; other folks learn differently.

As for practice, I did find it helpful to buy a new, replacement blade for my old plane, and an inexpensive set of 4 chisels from Woodcraft. The advantage is that while the backs of these may need polishing, it's relatively small amount of work. In fact, I'm not sure the LV and LN plane blades even need that (I've heard conflicting reports). I did polish the backs of the chisels on the diamond stone and then the waterstone. I could then move right to the honing step.

I also bought some beat up old chisels on that auction site. That gave me practice on flattening the back and establishing the primary bevel. That took a while on some of the chisels I had (some had no bevel at all!!), even on the extra coarse diamond stone. But once that's done, reestablishing a new primary is needed only after multiple honings, and doesn't take nearly as long as creating a 25 degree bevel out of a 90 degree one. Practicing on the beat up chisels gave me more confidence; it's not like I could screw those up any further.

I'll add my $0.02 to the freehand vs honing jig debate. First, noone is going to look at your finished product and be able to tell if you used a jig to sharpen your blades and chisels. I briefly tried the Veritas jig, but found it cumbersome (other folks have the opposite experience). As I mentioned, I was not comfortable doing it freehand. So I spent the $8 on the Eclipse, which I really like. It does add a minute or two per blade to my sharpening session, which I'm OK with. I at least have something that gives me repeatable results and removes a source of doubt about whether I got a good honing bevel. I'm sure if I stuck with freehand I would have gotten better with more practice, and I may try it again in the future. But I'm still working on the basics, so for now the Eclipse is what I'll use. Your mileage may (will) vary.